What interpretations would lead to someone receiving "the ban" or excommunication from your church?

[readrevelations1to22]

Wife: my mom was a JW at one point, and my dad was also influenced a bit by that and by his relative who was in some random group called the way international. Both of these groups would basically assign Jesus to the level of an angel or brother of Satan. I think also seventh day adventists that are closer to Ellen White Adventism would have that view.

I think there’s plenty of evidence of Jesus’ deity, such as when he says before Abraham was, I AM, the discussion about in the beginning there was the Word and how all things were created through Him, and also Hebrews talking about how Jesus was not an angel. Also, I get the feeling that while He was on earth, He gave up some of His heavenly knowledge. My child and I were actually wondering if He knew the hour now that He is at the Father‘s right hand or not. The wisemen worshipped Him, and I think possibly Simeon and Anna, and of course Mary Madeline, etc. and were never corrected, which would be blasphemy otherwise.

That said, I think modern trinitarianism does not actually have a very good explanation, and Soloist and I are in basic agreement over the view we hold. One of the best sermons I heard about it was from David Bercot, who grew up JW and never understood when people tried to explain the Trinity. he knows back to the Bible verses and also early church teachings, and some people would call his view Trinitarian and some may not. Don’t know if this is the same sermon we listened to, but it should have a lot of the same stuff in it either way. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TO1Jvw7PMAc&ra=m

I see your perspective. It can be confusing and I certainly don't have all the answers. I just have an understanding that the word God implies all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing and that therefore if one does not know even a single thing (Jesus not knowing the hour), or if there is one greater than them (When Jesus said the Father is greater than I) that shows he doesn't match the definition. Jesus existing before Abraham and the other incredible things show that Jesus is an extraordinary being and I don't know what word there is to describe Jesus but "Messiah" as Jesus Christ literally means Jesus "The Messiah".

Thanks for the video link, I'm listening to it now

[Soloist]

Wife: you can probably get a copy of a place’s instruction book. Mennonites and probably Amish would typically require someone to go through instruction class before being allowed to take communion with them. then you can also talk to their ministry to see what they think of your view. People don’t normally apply for membership though immediately. I was trying to see what exactly they had us say when we applied for membership and then also the baptismal vows, but I don’t know how much that varies Church to Church. We got baptized at an agape style church (they don’t do instruction class, but they did ask for a confession of faith and agreement to certain beliefs), and did membership vows at two other churches, as well as having a child baptized at a to conservative Mennonite church. The one thing I remember is that none of the vows required you to remain a member for life or anything. it was more about faithfulness to God/following Jesus, and there may have possibly been something about His deity there.

I don’t think the dietary stuff would be as big of a deal, although I would think that a lot would depend on whether they feel like you’re pressuring it on the rest of the group as far as the kosher sabbatarianism ect. Especially if you had that sort of background, I hope they would practice Romans 14.

[readrevelations1to22]

There are two different issues at play here. One is trinitarianism which is less important.

The other is whether Jesus is God or not. The view that he is “mere man” is called psilanthropy and is fundamentally at odds with Anabaptism.

We believe Jesus is God, not just some prophet or apostle or wise man like Menno Simons, Paul, or Moses.

Does belief that he is the "lord and savior of humanity, sent by God to save us, the promised messiah and son of God" not already elevate him far far above a "mere man"? In the scripture Jesus seems to have accepted the faith of those who stated things like this:

• "Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." -Mathew 16:16-17
  
  "She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”" -John 11:27
  
  "Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”"-John 1:49

They called him the messiah and son of God, and he seems to have accepted their faith without requiring them to say more than that. I would hope modern Christians could accept a similar statement of faith to be accepted as their fellow believer

Our history with people who adopt Judaising customs is very negative. An example is Sam Mullet, one of the “Bergholz Barbers”.

That is a sad situation there, but it would be unfair to claim that Sam Mullet was sincerely following the old testament, many of the articles about that case describe his carnal immorality and how he seduced married members of his own congregation. Not only is there no justification for that, it is a direct violation of the law of the old testament.

[Soloist]

Wife: As a sidenote, I would hope most places would at least be patient with you if you were to start attending. They don’t typically excommunicate people who were never members and there’s no stopping you from being able to befriend them and be part of some of their stuff and invited to their house in the meantime (although try not to preach to their children or else it might annoy them. Not saying you actually would, just that it occasionally happens and does not go well). Lots of people will attend a church for quite a while before deciding to become a member and depending on the church, they’re usually fine with that.

[readrevelations1to22]

I don’t think the dietary stuff would be as big of a deal, although I would think that a lot would depend on whether they feel like you’re pressuring it on the rest of the group as far as the kosher sabbatarianism ect. Especially if you had that sort of background, I hope they would practice Romans 14.

I just read Romans 14 because you mentioned it, that is a really interesting read. It seems to show there were those of Jewish background joining the early church who still wanted to practice old testament law and that they were to be accepted.

[Ernie]

If someone is willing to say "Jesus is our lord" "Jesus is our savior" "Jesus is the promised messiah" etc. but they are not willing to say "Jesus is God" would specifically stating that ever actually be required? Like at communion or otherwise? Because if the baptism vows don't require specifically saying "Jesus is God" but instead say something like "Jesus is our lord and savior" I wonder if it would be possible to just maintain a silent unusual belief without coming into any argument

It is unlikely that anyone would ever ask you to say that Jesus is God. But if you told anyone in the congregation about not wanting to make that statement, it may get spread around and the church may begin to wonder if you are Christian and you might get asked to testify of your beliefs.

Depending on the church, you may get asked in the application process whether you hold to any beliefs that are considered fringe or not generally held by most Christians.

[Soloist]

Does belief that he is the "lord and savior of humanity, sent by God to save us, the promised messiah and son of God" not already elevate him far far above a "mere man"? In the scripture Jesus seems to have accepted the faith of those who stated things like this:

I would point out to you

Jhn 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

If this was not true, it would be blasphemy and Jesus would definitely correct it.
Therefore, Jesus is God without question.

[Neto]

Wife: my mom was a JW at one point, and my dad was also influenced a bit by that and by his relative who was in some random group called the way international. Both of these groups would basically assign Jesus to the level of an angel or brother of Satan. I think also seventh day adventists that are closer to Ellen White Adventism would have that view.

I think there’s plenty of evidence of Jesus’ deity, such as when he says before Abraham was, I AM, the discussion about in the beginning there was the Word and how all things were created through Him, and also Hebrews talking about how Jesus was not an angel. Also, I get the feeling that while He was on earth, He gave up some of His heavenly knowledge. My child and I were actually wondering if He knew the hour now that He is at the Father‘s right hand or not. The wisemen worshipped Him, and I think possibly Simeon and Anna, and of course Mary Madeline, etc. and were never corrected, which would be blasphemy otherwise.

That said, I think modern trinitarianism does not actually have a very good explanation, and Soloist and I are in basic agreement over the view we hold. One of the best sermons I heard about it was from David Bercot, who grew up JW and never understood when people tried to explain the Trinity. he knows back to the Bible verses and also early church teachings, and some people would call his view Trinitarian and some may not. Don’t know if this is the same sermon we listened to, but it should have a lot of the same stuff in it either way. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TO1Jvw7PMAc&ra=m

I see your perspective. It can be confusing and I certainly don't have all the answers. I just have an understanding that the word God implies all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing and that therefore if one does not know even a single thing (Jesus not knowing the hour), or if there is one greater than them (When Jesus said the Father is greater than I) that shows he doesn't match the definition. Jesus existing before Abraham and the other incredible things show that Jesus is an extraordinary being and I don't know what word there is to describe Jesus but "Messiah" as Jesus Christ literally means Jesus "The Messiah".

Thanks for the video link, I'm listening to it now

Read Philippians chapter 2 again.

[Ernie]

I would point out to you

Jhn 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

If this was not true, it would be blasphemy and Jesus would definitely correct it.
Therefore, Jesus is God without question.

I think your deduction is plausible, but I would point out that this is a deduction, not something we can say for sure. I'm not sure the Bible records a rebuttal to everything that is said incorrectly.

For the record, I accept Thomas's statement as truth and I believe that Jesus is God.

[Soloist]

I would point out to you

Jhn 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

If this was not true, it would be blasphemy and Jesus would definitely correct it.
Therefore, Jesus is God without question.

I think your deduction is plausible, but I would point out that this is a deduction, not something we can say for sure. I'm not sure the Bible records a rebuttal to everything that is said incorrectly.

For the record, I accept Thomas's statement as truth and I believe that Jesus is God.

Wife: Well, Hebrews 1 also talks about it pretty clearly. There are instances where He was worshipped in the gospels and also in Revelation, and probably in some of the letters where He is worshiped, which the 10 Commandments makes clear is only allowed for God. He calls himself I AM, which the Pharisees certainly assumed was a statement of deity and blasphemy, and you’d think He would’ve cleared that up if it wasn’t true.

I liked Bercot’s explanation about how He is the word of God, meaning that He was always there with God, but also technically created by God and all things were created through him. I’ve found that it’s very pointless to argue with JW‘s though since they have their own translation now. Besides, almost nobody is actually convinced by a single argument, unless they’re already questioning it.

I honestly think that requiring absolutely correct doctrine about the Trinity is ridiculous since at least part of it is a mystery. I liked what David Bercot said about it not being a theology test. I don’t necessarily agree with everything the guy endorses, but that sermon cleared up a lot of things in my mind, because it certainly does not seem like the egg analogy or some of the other stuff I grew up with made any sense to me, even though it appeared that Jesus was God in some sections, yet not the same Person.