What interpretations would lead to someone receiving "the ban" or excommunication from your church?

[JohnH]

Horse and buggy groups generally have a much higher level of integration and community - that means a far less room to hold oddball doctrines.

I advise people with such doctrines to simply go to a church that teaches and encourages them.

So what church teaches or tolerates such doctrines while also genuinely separating themselves from the high tech, sinful and corrupt modern world?

None that I am aware of.

If I take a look at the combination of declining human physical/mental health, the rise of broken families, collapsing fertility rates, skyrocketing chronic health conditions, the rising disconnect between nature and childhood, the increasingly tech addicted society and all of the sinful addictions I need not name which consume them... What church is actually putting it's foot down and protecting it's members? The vast majority of churches allow or even encourage the social media, phones, and other tech behind this.

So for someone who read the Gospel and came to a few unconventional conclusions, and also realizes the importance of a healthy low tech community to protect their children, where should they turn?

They should accept the gospel as affirmed by Christians many times over and recognise the connection between that and being able to maintain a “non tech” lifestyle.

Alternatively, pursue these groups:

- Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals
- Christadelphians
- Church of God of Abrahamic Faith
- Various other “Atlanta Bible College” groups

These all drive cars etc though.

Lobelville doesn’t require a specific statement of faith and says to just uphold then “Bible”. They would also consider a Unitarian to not be upholding the Bible. They also are unable to maintain horse and buggy, no phones etc.

Ultimately, all low tech Anabaptists groups expect members to believe that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and accept the mystery of this. They also expect to see a changed life from accepting Christ’s message of salvation and believe the Holy Spirit is God who comes and inhabits the sincere believer. You simply won’t find one without the other.

The German Baptist horse and buggy groups are universalist and would probably be the most tolerant of differing views of the trinity, however. They won’t tolerate trying to change other members’ views of such things.

[JohnH]

When you say Delano offers zero degrees of freedom to differ from them on matters of doctrine, would privately abstaining from foods such as pork, private washing/prayer, private fasting, and a silent nontrinitarian view (assuming that their baptism vows did not explicitly require the trinity) really put one into a situation where they viewed you as completely incompatible with them even if you openly agreed on many other things?

Anabaptists believe strongly in the New Testament. A group like Delano has a very high community life, which is why you’re attracted to them in the first place.

You can’t privately abstain from pork since they often eat meals together, have a shared market that might sell pork products you would be involved with, and might even be taught how to raise pigs as part of learning a low tech lifestyle. You might need to help another member butcher their pigs.

Private washing wouldn’t be very private either. They don’t have sinks in their bathrooms since they’re low tech, so it’s not going to be private. When you eat a meal with someone else they’re going to observe your washing rituals.

The entire point of a community like that is not much of life is “private” but shared.

Anyway I would drive down there and meet / visit with the leadership yourself, share your views and struggles and I think they would give you very good counsel.

[Soloist]

Wife: it really depends on what you mean by non-Trinitarian View. If you don’t believe in the deity of Jesus, I don’t think any of the churches that we’ve gone to would allow you to be a member. Oneness or threeness ect would probably not be as big of a deal as long as you don’t think that He was just another angel/brother of Satan, etc.,and you believe in His deity. The other stuff they might talk to you about if it seems like you’re trying to save yourself through doing those things. Sabbatarian ism might be an issue. If you try to change the church service schedule, or are attending a non-Mennonite church on Saturdays (they might wonder why you’re going to two different churches and wanting to be a church member). Other than that if you don’t want to work on a Saturday, it would probably be OK as long as you don’t holier than thou about it. I don’t know if they would excommunicate for those things or not, but I think they would allow for personal conscience as long as you don’t think that’s what saves you or try to push it on other people.

Most Mennonite groups are different than Amish in that they don’t practice the ban to where they shun you. if you got excommunicated, you would not be able to take communion or have a part in church/ministry ect. You would probably just be treated like a nonmember although different people might have different convictions about hanging out with you. it’s hit or mess with different Anabaptist groups from Charity, etc..


It would probably be helpful to find a church and ask them because individual leadership will apply things differently. most Mennonite churches you cannot just walk in and become a member right away because they want you to know what you’re getting into and they also want to get to know you. most also don’t allow non-members to take communion.

I sincerely view the gospel as the truth, and I desire to do what is correct, that is to do the will of God. I don't like to take a strong stance on that which I cannot comprehend. When I read verses in the Gospel such as these:
- "And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." -Mark 10:18
- "“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." -Mathew 24:36
- "You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." -John 14:28
I read these and conclude from the above that God alone is good, only God knows the hour not the son, and that God is greater than Jesus as Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" (these views do not mean that I don't love Jesus)

Since God is all powerful, the fact that Jesus said he does not know the hour but only God knows it makes me think he is not God.

I only desire to understand the truth here and I'm not trying to offend, this is just my understanding and I hope this doesn't mean I couldn't join any low tech Anabaptist group. As I am in much agreement with such groups on many other things. (And have not learned of any other communities in all of America that are as close in agreement so far in my research)

Also yes it seems talking to each individual community leadership would be a helpful way to gain clarity on this

Wife: my mom was a JW at one point, and my dad was also influenced a bit by that and by his relative who was in some random group called the way international. Both of these groups would basically assign Jesus to the level of an angel or brother of Satan. I think also seventh day adventists that are closer to Ellen White Adventism would have that view.

I think there’s plenty of evidence of Jesus’ deity, such as when he says before Abraham was, I AM, the discussion about in the beginning there was the Word and how all things were created through Him, and also Hebrews talking about how Jesus was not an angel. Also, I get the feeling that while He was on earth, He gave up some of His heavenly knowledge. My child and I were actually wondering if He knew the hour now that He is at the Father‘s right hand or not. The wisemen worshipped Him, and I think possibly Simeon and Anna, and of course Mary Madeline, etc. and were never corrected, which would be blasphemy otherwise.

That said, I think modern trinitarianism does not actually have a very good explanation, and Soloist and I are in basic agreement over the view we hold. One of the best sermons I heard about it was from David Bercot, who grew up JW and never understood when people tried to explain the Trinity. he knows back to the Bible verses and also early church teachings, and some people would call his view Trinitarian and some may not. Don’t know if this is the same sermon we listened to, but it should have a lot of the same stuff in it either way. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TO1Jvw7PMAc&ra=m

[JohnH]

There are two different issues at play here. One is trinitarianism which is less important.

The other is whether Jesus is God or not. The view that he is “mere man” is called psilanthropy and is fundamentally at odds with Anabaptism.

We believe Jesus is God, not just some prophet or apostle or wise man like Menno Simons, Paul, or Moses.

Our history with people who adopt Judaising customs is very negative. An example is Sam Mullet, one of the “Bergholz Barbers”.

[ken_sylvania]

One word of caution from personal experience. As mentioned above many churches will tolerate some divergent views as long as they are held quietly, but it can be a little sticky if members are expected to be involved in teaching especially if you have that gift. It's hard to stand in front of a group and teach something you don't believe. The types of churches you are considering may restrict all teaching to ordained leaders so you wouldn't face that problem.

There is plenty of teaching that can be done without having to promote a controversial viewpoint.

[readrevelations1to22]

Someone may ask, What does it matter? My feeling is that it adds additional 'stumbling blocks' or offences to the Gospel, especially for people coming to salvation from either Judaism, or Islam. I also feel that it damages clear teaching in the Scripture regarding the oneness we ought to all have with one another, as part of the Body of Christ, the Congregation of God.

This is the case. For a Jew or Muslim who starts reading the Gospel, they are now rejected by most Muslims and Jews, yet if they interpret the Gospel outside of mainstream Christianity they might be rejected by the Christian community too even though they do love Jesus, which is very sad.

[readrevelations1to22]

My feeling is that this sacrifices doctrine, the Scripture, and the very relationship with God itself, for what? For a way of life on this earth, which is not our permanent home.

Life on earth is not our permanent home, which is exactly why I think that taking up a primitive farming life (which is arguably not particularly fun and really minimizes the daily dopamine hits) is important. It is a sacrifice of personal pleasure to start washing ones clothes by hand, but if you do it so you don't have to be exposed to sin and those temptations then is that not an attempt to go towards the narrow gate? There certainly might be some people who are blessed with such strong willpower that they could live in downtown NYC and never fall into sin, but I have never met someone like that.

"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;" -Revelation 18:4

[readrevelations1to22]

One word of caution from personal experience. As mentioned above many churches will tolerate some divergent views as long as they are held quietly, but it can be a little sticky if members are expected to be involved in teaching especially if you have that gift. It's hard to stand in front of a group and teach something you don't believe. The types of churches you are considering may restrict all teaching to ordained leaders so you wouldn't face that problem.

That's an important point I hadn't thought about

[readrevelations1to22]

Ultimately, all low tech Anabaptists groups expect members to believe that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and accept the mystery of this. They also expect to see a changed life from accepting Christ’s message of salvation and believe the Holy Spirit is God who comes and inhabits the sincere believer. You simply won’t find one without the other.

If someone is willing to say "Jesus is our lord" "Jesus is our savior" "Jesus is the promised messiah" etc. but they are not willing to say "Jesus is God" would specifically stating that ever actually be required? Like at communion or otherwise? Because if the baptism vows don't require specifically saying "Jesus is God" but instead say something like "Jesus is our lord and savior" I wonder if it would be possible to just maintain a silent unusual belief without coming into any argument

The German Baptist horse and buggy groups are universalist and would probably be the most tolerant of differing views of the trinity, however. They won’t tolerate trying to change other members’ views of such things.

Interesting

[readrevelations1to22]

Anabaptists believe strongly in the New Testament. A group like Delano has a very high community life, which is why you’re attracted to them in the first place.

You can’t privately abstain from pork since they often eat meals together, have a shared market that might sell pork products you would be involved with, and might even be taught how to raise pigs as part of learning a low tech lifestyle. You might need to help another member butcher their pigs.

Private washing wouldn’t be very private either. They don’t have sinks in their bathrooms since they’re low tech, so it’s not going to be private. When you eat a meal with someone else they’re going to observe your washing rituals.

The entire point of a community like that is not much of life is “private” but shared.

Anyway I would drive down there and meet / visit with the leadership yourself, share your views and struggles and I think they would give you very good counsel.

Yes that makes sense regarding the lack of privacy and communal way of life.

Now to be clear: the issue's all arise because someone is openly not eating pork or whatever for a religious reason, if on the other-hand they did not eat pork because they said it tastes bad, washed before prayer because "I just like to be clean" and fasted because well fasting is encouraged in the Gospel after all: "And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast." -Mathew 9:15 or alternatively one might fast because of the health benefits... the point being that these actions are not inherently in conflict with the community but only if one does so for openly religious reasons? Would that be a correct understanding?

Also thank you for the advice, you're right I think it would be wise to travel there and speak to them personally about this. But it's a very long journey for me so I'm just learning what I can through research at the moment