How lenient should we be to JohnL?

[temporal1]

OP / P.1:

.. Those of us who are Anabaptists are no doubt familiar with the Matthew 18 process of dealing with a brother overtaken in a fault. We have reached the point where the next step is to “take it to the assembly” (the word “church” used in most translations is anachronistic in this passage, and the forum is not a church anyway; but we are a community of believers).

It’s rare for a person to be banned from the forum (bots are another matter), but it has happened a few times, usually by executive order. This time we are asking for your input and would like to reach a community consensus on whether to do so, or not. Please vote accordingly. ..

Quite an experiment.
As it unfolds, it reminds of why pure democracies don’t work, i think, esp being so cumbersome.

Also, it helps with understanding Robert’s method of occasionally practicing executive order.
i believe, in the few cases of banning, if Robert had used this alternate approach, results would have been the same.
There was always a spattering of questions and protests, i’m sure they were heard.

i attributed Robert’s method to “the subjective nature of a privately-owned public forum”.
also, i empathized with the burden of decision-making, which can be heavy.

contemporary culture is “me” centric.
i wish for a balance that respects scriptural emphasis on confession, repentance, submission, obedience (to God’s will)
and also to one another in faith, in respect of faith in God. As described in scriptures.

i’m definitely interested in both methods, i rarely believe in either/or thinking.
God promises His way in all matters, i believe Him. He cannot be contained or confined. Praise God! He is more.

i’m reading and hoping to learn.

[Szdfan]

The claim is that you and Max are the same person.
What say you?

I think that’s the central question. It’s not about how IPs work. The fact that Max and JohnL have the same IP is evidence that supports the accusation that they are the same person. It’s not the main question.

And the question I’m mostly interested in is why? Why take your own death and try to pass yourself off as a different person? What’s the point?

[temporal1]

The claim is that you and Max are the same person.
What say you?

I think that’s the central question. It’s not about how IPs work. The fact that Max and JohnL have the same IP is evidence that supports the accusation that they are the same person. It’s not the main question.

And the question I’m mostly interested in is why? Why take your own death and try to pass yourself off as a different person? What’s the point?

yes. the questions have been asked repeatedly. the answer is no answer. “if he remains stiff-necked” ..

i have a similar situation with a loved relative. every petty lie pierces my heart. so unnecessary! (in my eyes)
no understanding.

what a painful loss! affable lies are still a lies.

i grieve all the conversations and closeness we might have had.
i haven’t shunned. i simply don’t share or ask, knowing truthfulness is unlikely. it’s a terrible loss.

why? no idea. no known motivation.
i believe there can be pathologies involved. there may be no understanding in our lifetimes.

[ken_sylvania]

In all this confusion I called a buddy of mine who calls himself The Geek Interpreter.

Yes, The Geek Interpreter. Couldn't you think up something more original?

[HondurasKeiser]

The claim is that you and Max are the same person.
What say you?

I think that’s the central question. It’s not about how IPs work. The fact that Max and JohnL have the same IP is evidence that supports the accusation that they are the same person. It’s not the main question.

And the question I’m mostly interested in is why? Why take your own death and try to pass yourself off as a different person? What’s the point?

That is the most important question.

[Soloist]

Wife: the more I think about it, the more it seems like a ban is in order if there’s no confession and apology. Given the fact that they are still blatantly continuing the deception, not banning them will just allow them to feel justified and show that dishonesty doesn’t have consequences.

I don’t know the motives, just like I don’t always know the motives why my children might lie to me about ridiculous things I can easily disprove and don’t really matter (other than maybe feeling ashamed to admit to the initial deception), but the open dishonesty is something that should not be allowed to be considered acceptable.

IP is not the only evidence. I would hope that everyone would try to be welcoming and forgiving if a confession and apology was made.

[JohnH]

This fiction about IP addresses illustrates my concern about letting an account like this continue posting. Some of us have experience with network technology and see it for what it is and maybe even find it entertaining. Others might read it and think it sounds plausible. Those who know the truth should expose it, and I think that has been done, but how many times does this need to happen?

And each lie gets covered up by another lie, and on and on. There's always a new lie. And there are always people who are convinced by the old one and irritated at the people who expose the lies. Or who think we simply shouldn't be so rude as to tell the truth.

It's like the alcoholic aunt in a family where you aren't supposed to question what she is drinking out of her teacup, most people probably know, others would be shocked to find out, and the whole family revolves around that lie in strange ways.

I need to write a longer post with my thoughts on this, but it is somewhat chilling to me how much these resembles when a known abuser gets away with it for years and just never quite get "caught". Too many people protect them. Too many well-meaning people just can't believe that such an upstanding community member could commit such atrocities. Those who insist that, yes, he did, get castigated as wanting to "attack" someone or "destroy their reputation".

No amount of proof is ever enough. (I once had a copy of a recorded confession of an abuser; that wasn't enough, and some people told me that the only way that would have happened is someone must have blackmailed him.) The victims, though... well, they're always in the wrong. They make accusations, some of them false. (False accusations happen, but it seems unlikely when they are hundreds of them from otherwise credible people.) They aren't living enough of a Christian life. She's mentally ill. She went to the world and got tattoos and got pregnant.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of parallels with this in l'affaire Max le rebaptisé; it points to something concerning that simply dwells in the mindsets and attitudes of conservative-leaning people.

[temporal1]

The claim is that you and Max are the same person.
What say you?

I think that’s the central question. It’s not about how IPs work. The fact that Max and JohnL have the same IP is evidence that supports the accusation that they are the same person. It’s not the main question.

And the question I’m mostly interested in is why? Why take your own death and try to pass yourself off as a different person? What’s the point?

That is the most important question.

Do you accept the question may continue to go unanswered?
Do you agree that some motivations may be beyond typical, for instance, typical fear, greed, hunger, panic, etc.?
That some motivations are abnormal, lacking ability of remorse?
Worse, even experiencing pleasure in causing others anxiety, turmoil, division, etc.?

There is generally a pay-off to every action, esp habitual actions. There’s a reward of some type. It could involve a dopamine rush.

Sadism
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/sadism

Btw. No one knows to what extent this plays out IRL.
i’m doubtful this is an exclusively online phenom.
Could the persons be incarcerated somewhere?

In my real life personal experience, i’ve found myself wondering about a low-level sadism problem somehow.
That is, when it’s obvious telling the truth has zero consequences, yet, a lie is always chosen!
That suggests there’s an inexplicable pleasure in choosing the lie. Something not at all obvious.
With zero remorse.

[HondurasKeiser]

I think that’s the central question. It’s not about how IPs work. The fact that Max and JohnL have the same IP is evidence that supports the accusation that they are the same person. It’s not the main question.

And the question I’m mostly interested in is why? Why take your own death and try to pass yourself off as a different person? What’s the point?

That is the most important question.

Do you accept the question may continue to go unanswered?

I fully expect it to, unfortunately.

[Szdfan]

I think that’s the central question. It’s not about how IPs work. The fact that Max and JohnL have the same IP is evidence that supports the accusation that they are the same person. It’s not the main question.

And the question I’m mostly interested in is why? Why take your own death and try to pass yourself off as a different person? What’s the point?

That is the most important question.

Do you accept the question may continue to go unanswered?

Absolutely. At this point, I don’t think Max/John is going to answer the question. But I still think it’s a question worth asking.

Do you agree that some motivations may be beyond typical, for instance, typical fear, greed, hunger, panic, etc.?
That some motivations are abnormal, lacking ability of remorse?
Worse, even experiencing pleasure in causing others anxiety, turmoil, division, etc.?

There is generally a pay-off to every action, esp habitual actions. There’s a reward of some type. It could involve a dopamine rush.

Sadism
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/sadism

I actually don’t know that. It’s clear that Max/John is getting something out of it, otherwise he wouldn’t be doing it. But I’m not comfortable speculating the psychological or pathological reason. There’s a lot I don’t know to draw any conclusion.

Btw. No one knows to what extent this plays out IRL.
i’m doubtful this is an exclusively online phenom.
Could the persons be incarcerated somewhere?

I have a good friend currently serving prison time. I’m reasonably confident that this person is not incarcerated. Prisoners don’t really have that kind of access to the internet.

In my real life personal experience, i’ve found myself wondering about a low-level sadism problem somehow.
That is, when it’s obvious telling the truth has zero consequences, yet, a lie is always chosen!
That suggests there’s an inexplicable pleasure in choosing the lie. Something not at all obvious.
With zero remorse.

I think what is obvious is that a lot of people are hurt by Max/John and that real damage has been done and there is opportunity to repair things.

John,

So this is where I’m at: I think the possibility that you’re Max and faked a death is high. I don’t know for sure, but the evidence and lack of explanation point in that direction. Your IP address explanation doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t answer the question people are asking.

If you are lying about who you are, I think you have the opportunity to come clean and start over. People are hurt, trust is broken, but honesty can be an opportunity to rebuild trust.

If there is an explanation for the evidence and shows that you are not Max, I think now is the time to give it. Otherwise, I think many of us will believe that the accusations are true, and the your choice about whether participate here will be taken from you.