Comparison of horse and buggy Anabaptists that are accepting of seekers

[JohnH]

Gee JihnH. If it’s not just me, maybe you need to reconsider, huh?

Do you have something to contribute to the thread?

[mike]

Gee JihnH. If it’s not just me, maybe you need to reconsider, huh?

I really hate being proven right but

[readrevelations1to22]

Great question! I can give some information based on my own exposure to these groups, but most of my information comes from my brothers who are in the process of joining a horse and buggy group. Your information aligns closely with theirs.

I'm trying to put together a list of different groups that are low tech and are relatively accepting of seekers, any help or corrections would be appreciated!

1) Scottsville type churches (Noah Hoover Mennonites?)
- Utilize german and english
- Located in KY, MO, and Belize (maybe 1 in Australia too)
- Slightly harder for seekers compared to Delano?
- Strict ordnung
- Lowest tech out of all Anabaptists

These groups are in full fellowship with the Delano churches. They would tend to refer seekers to the Delano churches for a few reasons, but would accept a seeker if they really wanted to join:

- PA Dutch is widely spoken, so that will be tough for a seeker unless they're good at language acquisition or already speak it.
- Church services are in German, although they would be willing to switch to English if a family joined who couldn't understand it.
- These communities don't have a public-facing "farm market" which they have found is very helpful for helping seekers integrate, including helping them struggle less with feelings of isolation from the outside world.
- These communities have more conventional forms of land ownership, so a family that wanted to move in would need to buy land very near the community since they obviously need to be in close proximity to it.

2) Delano TN type churches (also subgroup of Noah Hoover Mennonites?)
- More english because used to be Elmo Stoll Christian Community
- 3 communities in TN and 2 in AL
- Highly accepting of seekers, specific help to integrate such as teaching farm skills (1/3rd seeker background in some communities)
- Strict ordnung
- Lowest tech out of all Anabaptists

Yes, these seem to be specifically structured to integrate seekers, particularly with:

- Economic system structured around produce farming and a farm market
- Community land ownership where land is assigned to a family who moves in
- Semi-communal house ownership where people swap houses as their family sizes / needs change, which makes it much easier for seekers to move in close proximity as opposed to needing to try to buy possibly very expensive land
- The equivalent of a vocational "training program" where a family who moves in immediately has a job/work to do that is capable of sustaining themselves.
- Church services in English.
- The farm market gives lots of contact with the outside world, which can help seekers who struggle with feeling isolated.

My dad's cousin's best friends have lived next door on an adjacent parcel to one of these communities since before it existed, so they have watched the community from day 1. They often take their grandkids there (who would be my 2nd cousin's children). They speak very, very highly of it. The kids greatly enjoy their time there and playing with the other children there. I am very grateful my extended family has gotten to have such a positive experience of exposure to plain Anabaptist Christianity; it's particularly special and meaningful to me.

3) Vernon Community
- formerly from Lobelville so possibly english?
- Vernon KY and a new daughter community in Campbellsville KY
- Unsure on current view of seekers
- No ordnung?
- Very low tech (not even chainsaws allowed so wood is cut by hand)

I am not familiar with them.

4) Lobelville Believers in Christ
- English
- Main community in Lobelville, associated communities in other areas but unclear if these are still around
- Accepting of seekers
- No ordnung, focus is on a born again experience
- Mixed tech, apparently use cars sometimes but also horse and buggy

I had a wonderful experience staying with a family there during an AIC held in the area. I locked my keys in my rental pickup truck, so wasn't able to go to my own denomination's church, and I ended up going with them to their church instead. It was an enjoyable experience.

Lobelville overall is undergoing transition away from horse and buggy to use of cars, so someone seeking a horse and buggy community might not find what they are looking for. My understanding is that the family I stayed with has migrated to a Delano type community.

5) German Baptist Brethren in Covington OH
- English
- Ohio, unsure if others
- Accepting of seekers (1/3rd seeker background)
- Ordnung
- Low tech horse and buggy

I have heard a lot of positive things about this group, but my only contact with them has been waving at their buggies when I stayed at someone's house near the triangular "corner" in Covington. As I understand it, they try to practice some of the original pietistic doctrines of the original Schwarzenau Brethren. This does include a view of "eventual reconciliation" (which some would call "universal salvation"). The reputation they have is quite positive.

Could use help with a few questions:

Does anybody know if the community in Holland KY is more like the Scottsville type or the Delano type? I read they're a former Elmo Stoll Christian Community so I assume they speak more english similar to Delano?

Don't know.

How does the Vernon community treat sincere seekers?

Don't know.

Are there any religious doctrine or major belief differences between these groups (given their unique history of being intentional rather than traditional and their association with the "pure church movement")?

The German Baptist group is going to have German Baptist / Brethren doctrines, although for the typical seeker from other Christian backgrounds, this will probably not be a problem. Most seekers from other backgrounds prefer full immersion, for example.

The Believers in Christ have unique theology.

What does a seeker have to agree with in order to join, for example does a seeker have to agree with the dordrecht confession or have some of these groups moved towards scripture only?

Believers in Christ described to me that to join one simply makes a confession of faith in the Bible and Jesus and is a member a few weeks later. They are notable amongst Anabaptists for this, though.

Any other major differences between these groups?

Any communities that I missed that are also very low tech + accepting of seekers?

I can put you in touch with a few people (my brother would be the best reference point) who could probably answer some of these questions or at least point you in the right direction. He hasn't joined yet/moved down there so he is reachable by telephone, although you could mail him a letter too - they are getting used to sending lots of letters back and forth in the mail to communicate with these various groups, since many of them are not easily reachable by telephone.

You should also add the Unity, Maine and Smyrna, Maine churches to your list along with the "Michigan Amish" churches. They are significantly less "low tech" than any of the groups you listed above, but are still horse and buggy. As I understand it, Unity & Smyrna have English church services and also have a dedicated meeting house instead of meeting in homes like Old Order Amish do. They are in full fellowship with the Old Order Amish and are considered a genuine Old Order Amish church district, though.

There's one more very unusual group that deserves a mention: The Old Order River Brethren have several communities, and one of them elected to stay horse and buggy. They are all in full fellowship with each other. (They are not to be confused with German Baptist Brethren.) They have unique practice such as everyone shares a testimony every Sunday. They are generally highly regarded and have a high number of seekers, along with the usual challenges that go along with that. (Something to consider as a seeker is that a place with a higher proportion of seekers is going to have lots of people with the same problems you have...)

Thank you for all the info JohnH!

The Delano group seems really interesting. I have a lot of questions so I'd be interested in contacting your brother sometime, I don't usually use a phone so does he have an email?

You're right about the Unity, Maine and Smyrna, Maine churches, I somehow forgot about them while making the post haha

I intend to do more reading on the "Michigan Amish" churches and the Old Order River Brethren.

You mentioned "Believers in Christ described to me that to join one simply makes a confession of faith in the Bible and Jesus and is a member a few weeks later. They are notable amongst Anabaptists for this, though."
I'm assuming that means most other groups require agreement on more than the Bible and Jesus? Would that be simply agreement with the ordnung or would it be agreement with doctrines such as the conclusions from the Council of Nicaea or doderecht confession? I'd specifically like to know what the Delano churches require if anyone knows that

[Judas Maccabeus]

Great question! I can give some information based on my own exposure to these groups, but most of my information comes from my brothers who are in the process of joining a horse and buggy group. Your information aligns closely with theirs.

I'm trying to put together a list of different groups that are low tech and are relatively accepting of seekers, any help or corrections would be appreciated!

1) Scottsville type churches (Noah Hoover Mennonites?)
- Utilize german and english
- Located in KY, MO, and Belize (maybe 1 in Australia too)
- Slightly harder for seekers compared to Delano?
- Strict ordnung
- Lowest tech out of all Anabaptists

These groups are in full fellowship with the Delano churches. They would tend to refer seekers to the Delano churches for a few reasons, but would accept a seeker if they really wanted to join:

- PA Dutch is widely spoken, so that will be tough for a seeker unless they're good at language acquisition or already speak it.
- Church services are in German, although they would be willing to switch to English if a family joined who couldn't understand it.
- These communities don't have a public-facing "farm market" which they have found is very helpful for helping seekers integrate, including helping them struggle less with feelings of isolation from the outside world.
- These communities have more conventional forms of land ownership, so a family that wanted to move in would need to buy land very near the community since they obviously need to be in close proximity to it.

2) Delano TN type churches (also subgroup of Noah Hoover Mennonites?)
- More english because used to be Elmo Stoll Christian Community
- 3 communities in TN and 2 in AL
- Highly accepting of seekers, specific help to integrate such as teaching farm skills (1/3rd seeker background in some communities)
- Strict ordnung
- Lowest tech out of all Anabaptists

Yes, these seem to be specifically structured to integrate seekers, particularly with:

- Economic system structured around produce farming and a farm market
- Community land ownership where land is assigned to a family who moves in
- Semi-communal house ownership where people swap houses as their family sizes / needs change, which makes it much easier for seekers to move in close proximity as opposed to needing to try to buy possibly very expensive land
- The equivalent of a vocational "training program" where a family who moves in immediately has a job/work to do that is capable of sustaining themselves.
- Church services in English.
- The farm market gives lots of contact with the outside world, which can help seekers who struggle with feeling isolated.

My dad's cousin's best friends have lived next door on an adjacent parcel to one of these communities since before it existed, so they have watched the community from day 1. They often take their grandkids there (who would be my 2nd cousin's children). They speak very, very highly of it. The kids greatly enjoy their time there and playing with the other children there. I am very grateful my extended family has gotten to have such a positive experience of exposure to plain Anabaptist Christianity; it's particularly special and meaningful to me.

3) Vernon Community
- formerly from Lobelville so possibly english?
- Vernon KY and a new daughter community in Campbellsville KY
- Unsure on current view of seekers
- No ordnung?
- Very low tech (not even chainsaws allowed so wood is cut by hand)

I am not familiar with them.

4) Lobelville Believers in Christ
- English
- Main community in Lobelville, associated communities in other areas but unclear if these are still around
- Accepting of seekers
- No ordnung, focus is on a born again experience
- Mixed tech, apparently use cars sometimes but also horse and buggy

I had a wonderful experience staying with a family there during an AIC held in the area. I locked my keys in my rental pickup truck, so wasn't able to go to my own denomination's church, and I ended up going with them to their church instead. It was an enjoyable experience.

Lobelville overall is undergoing transition away from horse and buggy to use of cars, so someone seeking a horse and buggy community might not find what they are looking for. My understanding is that the family I stayed with has migrated to a Delano type community.

5) German Baptist Brethren in Covington OH
- English
- Ohio, unsure if others
- Accepting of seekers (1/3rd seeker background)
- Ordnung
- Low tech horse and buggy

I have heard a lot of positive things about this group, but my only contact with them has been waving at their buggies when I stayed at someone's house near the triangular "corner" in Covington. As I understand it, they try to practice some of the original pietistic doctrines of the original Schwarzenau Brethren. This does include a view of "eventual reconciliation" (which some would call "universal salvation"). The reputation they have is quite positive.

Could use help with a few questions:

Does anybody know if the community in Holland KY is more like the Scottsville type or the Delano type? I read they're a former Elmo Stoll Christian Community so I assume they speak more english similar to Delano?

Don't know.

How does the Vernon community treat sincere seekers?

Don't know.

Are there any religious doctrine or major belief differences between these groups (given their unique history of being intentional rather than traditional and their association with the "pure church movement")?

The German Baptist group is going to have German Baptist / Brethren doctrines, although for the typical seeker from other Christian backgrounds, this will probably not be a problem. Most seekers from other backgrounds prefer full immersion, for example.

The Believers in Christ have unique theology.

What does a seeker have to agree with in order to join, for example does a seeker have to agree with the dordrecht confession or have some of these groups moved towards scripture only?

Believers in Christ described to me that to join one simply makes a confession of faith in the Bible and Jesus and is a member a few weeks later. They are notable amongst Anabaptists for this, though.

Any other major differences between these groups?

Any communities that I missed that are also very low tech + accepting of seekers?

I can put you in touch with a few people (my brother would be the best reference point) who could probably answer some of these questions or at least point you in the right direction. He hasn't joined yet/moved down there so he is reachable by telephone, although you could mail him a letter too - they are getting used to sending lots of letters back and forth in the mail to communicate with these various groups, since many of them are not easily reachable by telephone.

You should also add the Unity, Maine and Smyrna, Maine churches to your list along with the "Michigan Amish" churches. They are significantly less "low tech" than any of the groups you listed above, but are still horse and buggy. As I understand it, Unity & Smyrna have English church services and also have a dedicated meeting house instead of meeting in homes like Old Order Amish do. They are in full fellowship with the Old Order Amish and are considered a genuine Old Order Amish church district, though.

There's one more very unusual group that deserves a mention: The Old Order River Brethren have several communities, and one of them elected to stay horse and buggy. They are all in full fellowship with each other. (They are not to be confused with German Baptist Brethren.) They have unique practice such as everyone shares a testimony every Sunday. They are generally highly regarded and have a high number of seekers, along with the usual challenges that go along with that. (Something to consider as a seeker is that a place with a higher proportion of seekers is going to have lots of people with the same problems you have...)

Thank you for all the info JohnH!

The Delano group seems really interesting. I have a lot of questions so I'd be interested in contacting your brother sometime, I don't usually use a phone so does he have an email?

You're right about the Unity, Maine and Smyrna, Maine churches, I somehow forgot about them while making the post haha

I intend to do more reading on the "Michigan Amish" churches and the Old Order River Brethren.

You mentioned "Believers in Christ described to me that to join one simply makes a confession of faith in the Bible and Jesus and is a member a few weeks later. They are notable amongst Anabaptists for this, though."
I'm assuming that means most other groups require agreement on more than the Bible and Jesus? Would that be simply agreement with the ordnung or would it be agreement with doctrines such as the conclusions from the Council of Nicaea or doderecht confession? I'd specifically like to know what the Delano churches require if anyone knows that

The Old Order River Brethren are, for the most part, NOT horse and buggy, except for a group in the Midwest. They are very seeker-friendly.

[HansMacDonald]

As I understand it, they try to practice some of the original pietistic doctrines of the original Schwarzenau Brethren. This does include a view of "eventual reconciliation" (which some would call "universal salvation").

How wonderful they still believe in universal salvation! I wonder if the Old Brethren German Baptists, the other horse and buggy group, also still believe this.

[JohnH]

As I understand it, they try to practice some of the original pietistic doctrines of the original Schwarzenau Brethren. This does include a view of "eventual reconciliation" (which some would call "universal salvation").

How wonderful they still believe in universal salvation! I wonder if the Old Brethren German Baptists, the other horse and buggy group, also still believe this.

I heard that they both do, but the Camden group has had a significant number of defections of seekers to places like Delano from seekers who find out about their belief in eventual reconciliation and leave.

Bryce Geiser [spelling?] who was involved with Caneyville for a while is at the Camden group now.

[Southerner]

As I understand it, they try to practice some of the original pietistic doctrines of the original Schwarzenau Brethren. This does include a view of "eventual reconciliation" (which some would call "universal salvation").

How wonderful they still believe in universal salvation! I wonder if the Old Brethren German Baptists, the other horse and buggy group, also still believe this.

So, I am familiar w the "Petitioners" in the Covington area but am interested in info about the Camden group. Are they similar to the Petitioners and do they associate together? What is the official name of the Camden group?

[Southerner]

Another group to consider are the Old Brethren German Baptists from Camden, Indiana and Trenton, MO. They are the most conservative German Baptist group in existence. No tractors, no electricity, and no phones. They are of course English speaking.

I assume that if there are "no tractors", there are no cars?

[HansMacDonald]

As I understand it, they try to practice some of the original pietistic doctrines of the original Schwarzenau Brethren. This does include a view of "eventual reconciliation" (which some would call "universal salvation").

How wonderful they still believe in universal salvation! I wonder if the Old Brethren German Baptists, the other horse and buggy group, also still believe this.

So, I am familiar w the "Petitioners" in the Covington area but am interested in info about the Camden group. Are they similar to the Petitioners and do they associate together? What is the official name of the Camden group?

The official name of the Camden, IN and Trenton, MO group is 'Old Brethren German Baptists'. They are informally called the Leedyites. I don't know how much they associate with the Covington, OH group. The Petitioners would have tractors while the OBGB's would farm with horses. Heirbyadoption could tell you more.

[HansMacDonald]

Another group to consider are the Old Brethren German Baptists from Camden, Indiana and Trenton, MO. They are the most conservative German Baptist group in existence. No tractors, no electricity, and no phones. They are of course English speaking.

I assume that if there are "no tractors", there are no cars?

Correct, they are a horse and buggy group.