Mark 7:9-13 and pacifism

[Justfiguringitout]

I have not been on this forum for a while to to moving house and working on that. But I am still trying to follow some topics here. It's been very valuable and educational.
But I have a question.

Today Gavin Ortlund posted a video about whether or not God commanded children to be stoned. In the comments, one commenter wrote how he was doing research on stoning and capital punishment. And he said that in Mark 7:9-13, Jesus not only repeats the command to stone children for disresoecting their parents, but that he assumed continuity and even reinforces the death penalty for it. So I read the passage and I can see how he would come to this conclusion. What would be the Anabaptist non-violent rebuttal to this?

I hope somebody can help me here.

Thank you in advance.

[barnhart]

A key for me is found in verse 10, "Moses said..."

[JohnH]

1. At the point in time the entire old law still applied to humanity; Jesus had not died and forgiven all of our sins yet, although he sometimes forgave individuals like people he healed.

2. The passage says “Anyone who curses their father or mother should be put to death.” That’s what God says and what he considers the highest and most just outcome; we are not to curse our parents. (This is obviously referring to adults with capability to think and to understand what a curse is.)

3. It is hubris for sinful man to imagine he has better ideas about capital punishment than God does. Modern, sinful man seems to think he can do better, but he is wrong.

4. It says “should be put to death”, but it does not say who should be doing the executing. Eventually, in the NT we learn we don’t need to do the executing. We also learn we should not do things that merit the death penalty.

Ultimately, all will be judged and unrepentant sinners who do things like curse parents, engage in adultery, sodomy, murder, and so forth and not just do these things but celebrate others who do them will be condemned and sent to the second death. Note that “disobedient to parents” is listed:

“Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”

Jesus’ plan is for people who are such sinners to accept the gospel, repent, believe, and be changed. Those who reject this plan remain under full judgment.

[JohnH]

A key for me is found in verse 10, "Moses said..."

Hmm. So, did God give Moses the law, or not?

[Justfiguringitout]

A key for me is found in verse 10, "Moses said..."

But in verse 10 Jesus says they nullify the word of God. So that assumes that Moses says what God wanted him, to say, right? Or isn't the law of Moses the law of God?

[Justfiguringitout]

A key for me is found in verse 10, "Moses said..."

Hmm. So, did God give Moses the law, or not?

Plus in Matthew 15:4, the same is said, but the Jesus says: God said.

[Justfiguringitout]

1. At the point in time the entire old law still applied to humanity; Jesus had not died and forgiven all of our sins yet, although he sometimes forgave individuals like people he healed.

2. The passage says “Anyone who curses their father or mother should be put to death.” That’s what God says and what he considers the highest and most just outcome; we are not to curse our parents. (This is obviously referring to adults with capability to think and to understand what a curse is.)

3. It is hubris for sinful man to imagine he has better ideas about capital punishment than God does. Modern, sinful man seems to think he can do better, but he is wrong.

4. It says “should be put to death”, but it does not say who should be doing the executing. Eventually, in the NT we learn we don’t need to do the executing. We also learn we should not do things that merit the death penalty.

Ultimately, all will be judged and unrepentant sinners who do things like curse parents, engage in adultery, sodomy, murder, and so forth and not just do these things but celebrate others who do them will be condemned and sent to the second death. Note that “disobedient to parents” is listed:

“Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”

Jesus’ plan is for people who are such sinners to accept the gospel, repent, believe, and be changed. Those who reject this plan remain under full judgment.

So does that mean that being under full judgment, and deserving to be "put to death", then means eternal death instead of capital punishment?

[barnhart]

A key for me is found in verse 10, "Moses said..."

But in verse 10 Jesus says they nullify the word of God. So that assumes that Moses says what God wanted him, to say, right? Or isn't the law of Moses the law of God?

That assumes the law of Moses was God's directive for all people for all time. Is that your understanding? I have always understood the law of Moses was for a specific people in a specific time.

[Justfiguringitout]

A key for me is found in verse 10, "Moses said..."

But in verse 10 Jesus says they nullify the word of God. So that assumes that Moses says what God wanted him, to say, right? Or isn't the law of Moses the law of God?

That assumes the law of Moses was God's directive for all people for all time. Is that your understanding? I have always understood the law of Moses was for a specific people in a specific time.

Well. that is not really what I was trying to say. I wastrying to ascertain whether or not you think Moses spoke the word of God or not.

But in that case, if we take as starting point that it was a specific people in a specific time, it still doesn't solve my problem. Because then one could still say that Jesus reinforces the command and the penalty "for the specific people in the specific time" (he is speaking to the Pharisees after all).

[barnhart]

But in verse 10 Jesus says they nullify the word of God. So that assumes that Moses says what God wanted him, to say, right? Or isn't the law of Moses the law of God?

That assumes the law of Moses was God's directive for all people for all time. Is that your understanding? I have always understood the law of Moses was for a specific people in a specific time.

Well. that is not really what I was trying to say. I wastrying to ascertain whether or not you think Moses spoke the word of God or not.

But in that case, if we take as starting point that it was a specific people in a specific time, it still doesn't solve my problem. Because then one could still say that Jesus reinforces the command and the penalty "for the specific people in the specific time" (he is speaking to the Pharisees after all).

That is a good point. I have tried to take the teaching of Jesus and the apostles as directives for the church which includes me and my time.

I think the law of Moses was God's word for the time and place it was for.