Christian Pacifism

[HondurasKeiser]

There is fairly good evidence that the prayers for the government, good deeds, and returning good for evil by Christians in Rome eventually brought about good in the empire.

Could you unpack that statement? What "good in the empire" are you referring to?

[Ernie]

There is fairly good evidence that the prayers for the government, good deeds, and returning good for evil by Christians in Rome eventually brought about good in the empire.

Could you unpack that statement? What "good in the empire" are you referring to?

Tolerance for Christians seems to have increased as Christians became known for good works rather than violence. Some emperors treated them cruelly in spite of their good works, but at the local level, they were often appreciated. Eventually, it seems, non-violent Christians became known as the good people in the land and through this, society was bettered.

[barnhart]

Some of it is, however I don't think we need to give up on the cross as a redemption force in society, as the primary expression of being salt and light. Otherwise it becomes a symbol to hang on the wall.

Should our mission and goal be to redeem society, or simply to follow Christ in whatever he asks of us regardless of whether it seems like it will do any good for society?

I think our goal should be to see heaven brought to earth. As we do His will and pray, good will happen wherever there are Christians. Sometimes the changes in the surrounding society are more evident in some locations than in others.

Well said. One reason I am slow give ground to the neo- gnostics who want salvation to be entirely isolated from this world is because it violates the biblical theme of heaven coming to earth. Once salvation and church building are entirely spiritual pursuits, the ethics of how to live in this world fall under the gods of tribalism, nationalism, capitalism etc... and the cross is stripped of its salience and currency and relegated to a role of historic symbolism.

[mike]

Should our mission and goal be to redeem society, or simply to follow Christ in whatever he asks of us regardless of whether it seems like it will do any good for society?

I think our goal should be to see heaven brought to earth. As we do His will and pray, good will happen wherever there are Christians. Sometimes the changes in the surrounding society are more evident in some locations than in others.

Well said. One reason I am slow give ground to the neo- gnostics who want salvation to be entirely isolated from this world is because it violates the biblical theme of heaven coming to earth. Once salvation and church building are entirely spiritual pursuits, the ethics of how to live in this world fall under the gods of tribalism, nationalism, capitalism etc... and the cross is stripped of its salience and currency and relegated to a role of historic symbolism.

Of course salvation is not entirely isolated from this world. But it needs to be actual salvation - salvation through Jesus, repentance and baptism and participation in the kingdom of God now. Not just some vague good influence on society.

[barnhart]

I think our goal should be to see heaven brought to earth. As we do His will and pray, good will happen wherever there are Christians. Sometimes the changes in the surrounding society are more evident in some locations than in others.

Well said. One reason I am slow give ground to the neo- gnostics who want salvation to be entirely isolated from this world is because it violates the biblical theme of heaven coming to earth. Once salvation and church building are entirely spiritual pursuits, the ethics of how to live in this world fall under the gods of tribalism, nationalism, capitalism etc... and the cross is stripped of its salience and currency and relegated to a role of historic symbolism.

Of course salvation is not entirely isolated from this world. But it needs to be actual salvation - salvation through Jesus, repentance and baptism and participation in the kingdom of God now. Not just some vague good influence on society.

Perhaps a real life example is in order. The underlying split that formed the Southern Baptists fractured around the insistence of the non-southern Baptists that building the church should include the recognition of the humanity of all people, including the enslaved. The southern Baptists said this is an earthly, political matter and a distraction from the spiritual church.

I see some problems on both sides of that conflict but I think it is very dangerous to allow neo - gnostic division between loving Jesus in your heart and loving Jesus with your actions.