Buildings Plain Anabaptists Use for Church Endeavors

[R7ehr]

The last time I went to an Eastern church (on the west coast) in Rochester (not New York), the clergy were not attired in morning dress (perhaps because it was the evening, but they weren't in white-tie either), I did not witness any black hats, plain hats, or hats at all, and the parking lot had few black cars.

Those of you from the MD days might remember a frequent poster who also attended there.

I hear that the Western-Easterns are bit looser than the Eastern-Easterns.

[ken_sylvania]

The last time I went to an Eastern church (on the west coast) in Rochester (not New York), the clergy were not attired in morning dress (perhaps because it was the evening, but they weren't in white-tie either), I did not witness any black hats, plain hats, or hats at all, and the parking lot had few black cars.

Those of you from the MD days might remember a frequent poster who also attended there.

Yes, I was going to mention that black cars is more of a PA/MD/OH/IL thing. On the west coast black cars are more seen as elite and more likely to be avoided.

[Neto]

I find the actual topic here of interest, due to two main things; first, the less important as pertains to this discussion.
1.) We just returned early this morning from our trip to Europe, where we saw may very old churches in the Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland, with a very brief stop in Strasburg France/Germany.
2.) I have long been interested in the design of church houses from Mennonite history, and specifically from my own background, the Mennonite Brethren. There were still older styles of church houses back in Russia (and possibly back in Prussia, but I'm not certain they built special buildings for church meeting places back then), but mostly from my own experience, which starts with structures built after the emigration to the States, in the late 1800's.

The MB church houses were similar to the basic style of the time, except for two main differences. No steeples or crosses, and also that they always had separate entrances for women & men, and this separation extended into the meeting area itself, with no common area between the men's and the women's 'space'. The meeting house of the congregation of my formative years had been remodeled several years prior to my birth, but I've seen photos of it was from the time it was built (1917-1920) until 1952. This is the meeting house of my mother's family (her grandfather being the first church Elder, or, as you all would call that office, 'Bishop'), so I've also heard a lot of first-hand description of it as it was until the re-model project in 1952. I also have some childhood memories of the church meeting house in the community in which my dad grew up, which was never remodeled. Judging from photos of buildings in other MB communities, these two building were typical of the normal country meeting houses built in the first MB settlements in North America (both US and Canada). The interesting thing is that by around 1921 or so, MB meeting houses in towns and cities followed a different pattern. I cannot say when this design was 'abandonded', but my current guess is that it persisted up into the 50's, perhaps longer in the smaller towns in more rural areas of North America. (This style may have been common already in the colonies in South Russia, or 'New Russia' as what is now Ukraine was then called, but I haven't yet studied this.) This 'city church' design preserved the separate entrances, but incorporated dual 'towers' on the the 'front' of the building. In some cases the two towers were of identical size and height, but in other cities or towns the women's tower was a bit lower in height, sometimes significantly so.

[Ever thought about it that as soon as you go inside of the typical church building you are then in the back? And if there is an exit near the front inside the building, when you go out, you are then at the BACK of the building? ]

As concerns the cases where a building built to meet the norms of 'high churches' (I use this tern in the sense that it is used in the larger North American 'Evangelical' society, not in the sense in which it might be used in the Old Orders - I don't know.), my only personal experience in this regard is that the Bible college where I graduated (run by the Christian & Missionary Alliance) had been a Jesuit monastery until purchased by the C&MA a few years before I transferred there, in the Fall of 75. The 'special sink', as it's been called here in this discussion, was still there, behind the chapel. The slit in the wall through which the priests could observe the meeting area was still there, as were the prayer rooms, and the confessionals. The latter had had pay telephones installed, and were used as phone booths. The larger prayer rooms were used as music practice rooms (for smaller type instruments), and the smallest ones were still used as prayer rooms (and unfortunately for very regrettable purposes, as I unintentionally on one occasion observed). The larger prayer rooms still had the thick stone tables in them, and you could see where something, presumably some type of icon, had been broken or pried off. I may still a have a paper I found in one of these rooms, the instructions for the novice monk (or what ever the correct term is, or would have been during the time it was a monastery).

I do not know if this was typical, and if so, what its purpose was, but a small section in the back of the chapel was separated from the main part by wrought iron grates. (The rowdy guys tended to sit back there, perhaps fittingly so, depending on its actual intended purpose.)

Oh, and the kneelers were also still all there, attached to the back of the pews in front of the others. I cannot remember if there were any in front of the first row of pews, but I think there was a sort of low 'wall' there, similar in design as the backs of the pews themselves. (Incidentally, that sort of 'wall' reminds me of the 'privacy walls' I built for a non-Mennonite church house in South Dallas. These were installed in front of the first row of the choir benches, up on the stage behind the pulpit, to protect the modesty of the women who did not take adequate measures to protect it on their own, in terms of the length of their dresses.)

The interesting thing about those kneelers is that Mennonites kneel facing the back of the meeting area, while 'high' churches kneel toward the front. I preached once in a non-Mennonite Sunday service, where the one who prayed also turned toward the front of the 'sanctuary', rather than facing those in the the pews, as is the common custom in every Mennonite and Evangelical meeting I have ever attended. (I once helped the music department head from the Bible college make preparations in the Lutheran church house where he served as choir director, and when he was out briefly, I went up to the front to settle my curiosity as to what was behind the curtain in a small area there. It was only the brick wall behind there. What is the purpose of that, in the Lutheran context?)

[JayP]

In regards to cars in Eastern. Let’s go slow. I do not disagree that ministry use black color cars. My ping is MOST people in EPMC have black cars, some with other dark colors and very few lighter colors. And do not judge the few light colors. Yes, some might be choosing to and it would be looked down on. But for example I know they have told converts that short of having a red sports car, they need not take a financial hit with all else they are dealing with, and sell their not black car

John I think you view of Eastern is a bit off. I have never been in an Eastern church where the majority of men did not wear (their incredibly barely functional, stupid looking) hats.

[JohnH]

In regards to cars in Eastern. Let’s go slow. I do not disagree that ministry use black color cars. My ping is MOST people in EPMC have black cars, some with other dark colors and very few lighter colors. And do not judge the few light colors. Yes, some might be choosing to and it would be looked down on. But for example I know they have told converts that short of having a red sports car, they need not take a financial hit with all else they are dealing with, and sell their not black car

John I think you view of Eastern is a bit off. I have never been in an Eastern church where the majority of men did not wear (their incredibly barely functional, stupid looking) hats.

I didn't even know Eastern men sported the Eastern-style hat, but that's probably because I last attended in, well, a West Coast church. Maybe there aren't enough milliners out west.

I've never seen one at all. I once enjoyed a group of Eastern youth singing, and the boys were dutifully in plain coats, but no hats. A friend of mine showed me a bunch of pictures from when he went to Eastern Bible school (taken with a contraband camera, although it had the viewfinder LCD dutifully covered up with electrical tape), no hats there either. They're like something of legend to me.

[Neto]

In regards to cars in Eastern. Let’s go slow. I do not disagree that ministry use black color cars. My ping is MOST people in EPMC have black cars, some with other dark colors and very few lighter colors. And do not judge the few light colors. Yes, some might be choosing to and it would be looked down on. But for example I know they have told converts that short of having a red sports car, they need not take a financial hit with all else they are dealing with, and sell their not black car
....

After I came to Holmes County, and my marriage proposal was accepted by both my wife and her father, I sometimes visited with the bishop of the Beachy Amish-Mennonite congregation where my wife was a member. (For perspective sake, this was in 1982-83, and both her dad and the bishop there had been Amish into their 40's, and while I cannot compare the standards as practiced there to other B. A-M congregations, they were still very 'Plain' at that time. The changes that later came to that congregation only came about after that bishop retired from his position, many years later.) That said, after explaining that I had purchased it based on its utility, and not for its appearance, I was offered some concessions in regards to the car I had at that time. (It was a 4-door gold colored 72 Dodge Coronet, with a black vinyl top.) I could keep it (as a work car - my wife already owned a 'compliant' car that we could use for church functions), but when it needed to be replaced, the 'new' car would need to be compliant. Some of the guys in the congregation (who had grown up there) told me that he (the bishop) was 'soft' on people coming in 'from the outside' - that they would never be given those kinds of concessions. But while they may have felt it was unfair of him, I take it as a reasonable attitude, and although I did not join that congregation, I always enjoyed visiting with him in the years that followed. (He was perhaps my father-in-law's best friend in their church, so there were frequent family interactions, and that congregation also did support us financially in our missionary work the entire time we were in active service. I also sold that car a few weeks after we married anyway, as we were moving to Texas for my wife to complete her required graduate courses for missionary service.)

But as to the actual topic here, I agree with your earlier comments regarding the need for proactive maintenance of a pipe organ. I would have thought there would be interest in the one mentioned by someone else, unless its condition was already severely deteriorated. Even a normal piano needs to be tuned regularly, or it will at least require repeated tuning to get it to the point where it again maintains proper tone. (At least that is what we were told when we bought an old upright piano along with our house here.)

Having grown up in a country congregation that had only a piano, I have never really cared for the sound of an organ as compared to a piano, but the sound of those built-in pipe organs cannot be described as anything less than majestic.

Regarding the 'historical aspect' of a church house, there are places in both Poland and in Ukraine where a former Mennonite church house's history is being preserved by Catholic congregations who now own the structure. We don't regard a building built for worship in quite the same way as the 'high churches', but their attitude can still be appreciated.

[barnhart]

Regarding the 'historical aspect' of a church house, there are places in both Poland and in Ukraine where a former Mennonite church house's history is being preserved by Catholic congregations who now own the structure. We don't regard a building built for worship in quite the same way as the 'high churches', but their attitude can still be appreciated.

This is similar to my feeling, there are many things I don't hold sacred but I would be slow to tear them down as respect to those who do.

[JohnH]

Regarding the 'historical aspect' of a church house, there are places in both Poland and in Ukraine where a former Mennonite church house's history is being preserved by Catholic congregations who now own the structure. We don't regard a building built for worship in quite the same way as the 'high churches', but their attitude can still be appreciated.

This is similar to my feeling, there are many things I don't hold sacred but I would be slow to tear them down as respect to those who do.

Reformed Mennonites hold their church buildings in such high esteem that if they stop having services somewhere, they will try to tear the building out lest it be used by a not-one-true-church church.

[Neto]

Regarding the 'historical aspect' of a church house, there are places in both Poland and in Ukraine where a former Mennonite church house's history is being preserved by Catholic congregations who now own the structure. We don't regard a building built for worship in quite the same way as the 'high churches', but their attitude can still be appreciated.

This is similar to my feeling, there are many things I don't hold sacred but I would be slow to tear them down as respect to those who do.

Reformed Mennonites hold their church buildings in such high esteem that if they stop having services somewhere, they will try to tear the building out lest it be used by a not-one-true-church church.

When our original meeting house was being replaced, although there was an offer from someone who wanted to move it down the road a piece, and use it as a 'wedding chapel', the decision was made to tear it down. The concern was that it might later become a bar (or something worse). Now, even if a binding agreement were made to the effect that it would never be anything but a place of Christian worship or, as proposed, a 'wedding chapel', even that would not prevent the blasphemy of marriage that has become too common. That could not have been anticipated at that time, so I think it was the right decision. (My proposal at the time, in the business meeting, was to start a sister congregation. But there actually were serious issues with the building, most of which I was fully aware, due to my prior 'job status' as the church janitor. But the master plan that was being followed had been drawn up and approved by the congregation somewhere around 15 years before, when I was just a boy. So that business meeting was really about approving the next step with the current membership, and making decisions about some details of the project, like financing options.)

[JohnH]

It is very rare it needs to happen, but we will just sell a church building. Probably preferred if to another conservative Anabaptist group or a non Anabaptist church that seems like good people, but the church and school in Oroville is just somebody’s house now.