Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[JohnH]

mutually beneficial trading partnerships with their neighbors

Perhaps there is more to human fulfilment and flourishing than low tariff, transaction-based global trade.

[Bootstrap]

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-lures- ... _permalink

Africans duped into feeding the meat grinder.

Russia has expended 242 people for every square mile of territory it has gained during the war.

I've been to Russia, I love the people, I love some of its culture... but I do not understand the thinking of their leaders... What a brain-dead way to "make Russia (er USSR) great again" (that is the only motivation I can deduce) Around the turn of the century they had this window of opportunity, where things were opening up; where they could have formed permanent cultural and mutually beneficial trading partnerships with their neighbors... And it benefited the majority of the regular main street people...
And Putin plays with that for a bit, but apparently all as a guise to build up to going backwards to the USSR? He and some others must be extremely brainwashed to believe that getting back to the USSR days would make things better for him and his people; that its stature in the world and its economy! and opportunity etc etc would some how rise higher than it was in the late 90's/early aughts... Instead it's a bloodbath, a stalemate, an isolated pariah state trudging ever downward... almost universally scorned... an entity that many don't want to deal with... so sad - the stupidity. of arrogant nostalgia...

The glory of the Russian empire. It seems to benefit the oligarchs and the political class, but not the average Russian citizen. And I think Putin's rhetoric really does go back to the Tsars more than the Soviet Union.

Perhaps there is more to human fulfilment and flourishing than low tariff, transaction-based global trade.

Like ... Russian imperialism? How does that lead to human fulfillment? Is Ukraine more fulfilled now that the whole country is a battlefield?

I do there is more to human fulfillment. But I wouldn't look to Putin for that.

[JohnH]

Like ... Russian imperialism? How does that lead to human fulfillment? Is Ukraine more fulfilled now that the whole country is a battlefield?

Did anyone say that it does?

[Bootstrap]

Like ... Russian imperialism? How does that lead to human fulfillment? Is Ukraine more fulfilled now that the whole country is a battlefield?

Did anyone say that it does?

In context, it looked like that was the most natural way to read what you wrote.

Perhaps you can respond to the full text of what Jazman said, in context, and be clearer about what you agree and disagree with? Why is it wrong for people to look for their own well-being? Why is thwarting that not a problem?

[Jazman]

mutually beneficial trading partnerships with their neighbors

Perhaps there is more to human fulfilment and flourishing than low tariff, transaction-based global trade.

Why would anyone not want low-to-0 tariffs and good and high-trust, beneficial trading relationships with other countries? What's bad about that? Do you believe that cooperation and rules-based, trust-building/high trust transactions are undesirable? I'm confused by the implications of your statement. I'm also confused because tariffs/trade wasn't really the main point of my post...

But I do stand by this ideal (I see this ideal in Scripture btw) I want this ideal realized. I want to live in a world where this ideal is the aim, rather than a rare exception... "mutually beneficial trading partnerships with their neighbors" (Even if it's only an oft missed or never attained ideal... it's still something good!) It actually does happen a lot where I live; my county, my state's economy (including my livelihood) would collapse if we didn't have a lot of that ideal actually, tangibly happening right now! And I believe the same thing can generally be scaled to the size of the globe and between countries. But as I've learned in the last 10yrs or so, apparently a lot of free-market former conservatives (now MAGA) don't believe that's possible. I do. A lot of countries still do. They are going to flourish and/or endure longer than the pariah countries who are rejecting that ideal (like Russia, like North Koreat, and fast approaching, like MAGA USA...).

[temporal1]

CBS / “Putin says he believes Ukrainian conflict nearing end amid scaled-down Victory Day celebrations”
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-russ ... -security/

[JohnH]

I guess Russia decided to just pound Kiev like crazy with missiles, allegedly 90 or so plus 600 "kamikaze" style attack drones.

Allegedly 55 missiles and 549 drones were intercepted, the rest got through.

I guess this kind of escalation is inevitable since Ukraine has been stepping up attacks deep inside Russia... but for all the fire and flash of this, the net result is 4 people dead and about 100 injured, 36 of them in the hospital.

Seems like this level of conflict could simply go on forever. Ridiculous waste of both money and life.

[temporal1]

Over 4 years. Discouraging.

Newsweek / Russian troop build-up threatens city seen as key to seizing Ukraine's Donbas
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9w2g0ewk95o

BBC / Ukraine strikes increasingly isolated Crimea, upping pressure on Russia
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-strike ... a-12102598

[mike]

I guess Russia decided to just pound Kiev like crazy with missiles, allegedly 90 or so plus 600 "kamikaze" style attack drones.

Allegedly 55 missiles and 549 drones were intercepted, the rest got through.

I guess this kind of escalation is inevitable since Ukraine has been stepping up attacks deep inside Russia... but for all the fire and flash of this, the net result is 4 people dead and about 100 injured, 36 of them in the hospital.

Seems like this level of conflict could simply go on forever. Ridiculous waste of both money and life.

Attacks like this have no actual military value. They don't affect the frontlines. They also have no propaganda value, and they just entrench world opinion and the will of the Ukrainians to continue the fight against Russia. I have no idea why they do this.

Ukrainian attacks at least appear to focus on Russian infrastructure such as oil facilities which have an actual affect on Russia's economy. I don't know whether they represent a pin prick or cause actual pain, but at least they would have to be seriously annoying. How a country like Russia can tolerate four years of this sort of thing is beyond me, unless they actually are militarily unable to defend themselves, which is kind of unbelievable.

[Soloist]

I guess Russia decided to just pound Kiev like crazy with missiles, allegedly 90 or so plus 600 "kamikaze" style attack drones.

Allegedly 55 missiles and 549 drones were intercepted, the rest got through.

I guess this kind of escalation is inevitable since Ukraine has been stepping up attacks deep inside Russia... but for all the fire and flash of this, the net result is 4 people dead and about 100 injured, 36 of them in the hospital.

Seems like this level of conflict could simply go on forever. Ridiculous waste of both money and life.

Attacks like this have no actual military value. They don't affect the frontlines. They also have no propaganda value, and they just entrench world opinion and the will of the Ukrainians to continue the fight against Russia. I have no idea why they do this.

Ukrainian attacks at least appear to focus on Russian infrastructure such as oil facilities which have an actual affect on Russia's economy. I don't know whether they represent a pin prick or cause actual pain, but at least they would have to be seriously annoying. How a country like Russia can tolerate four years of this sort of thing is beyond me, unless they actually are militarily unable to defend themselves, which is kind of unbelievable.

Remember Ukraine has every incentive to promote Russian strikes against civilian targets and deny or downplay military hits. Likewise Russia the same.
It may be that the no military value is misleading. For example do you know where the manufacturing plants are for the drones? Do you know how many of these are jammed and miss the target? intercepted and damage unintended targets? targeted at civilian structures and hit? how many were opted not to intercept due to low value of target?
Its very strategic to hit the power sub stations which generally are in cities. Its not strategic to hit an Apartment complex.

Israel for example with Iran has claimed basically that Iran attacks are intercepted or ineffective but they have very steep penalties for reporting war damage to their structures, military or civilian.

I'm not saying that the statement is true or not true but in war the entire point is to reduce civilian will to fight to force the political powers to give up. Thats why a larger force can be defeated even if the military wins every fight.