Icons versus religious art

[Valerie]

I regret opening the subject. I think I have expressed it insufficiently such that some of you are focused in the idolatry topic.

My attempt, based on a recent conversation, was to elicit thoughts on if one recognized (and how) a difference literally between religious art and formal icons. I like both. But a painting like Tanner’s Annunciation, while IMHO great art, is NOT an icon. Meanwhile, I have many orthodox icons hanging on the wall. They are not icons BECAUSE they are religious art, they are icons because they follow specific, traditional representations and presentations. For example, icons are never signed, or the consistent use of red slippers for the Theotokos. I suspect this audience may not be aware of the “rules” and the different stages if Iconographt.

Obviously we disagree in that most of you are iconoclasts period. We will not agree on what is a graven image

If you are willing to teach I for one am interested. I know that would take time. I may be the Lone Ranger here but I absolutely disagree that the commandment prohibiting graven images applies to icons. For one thing, God had described images to be down into the tabernacle curtains (angels I think) plus the cherubim over the mercy seat- I don’t think it is difficult to understand the distinction.

[R7ehr]

I may be the Lone Ranger here but I absolutely disagree that the commandment prohibiting graven images applies to icons. For one thing, God had described images to be down into the tabernacle curtains (angels I think) plus the cherubim over the mercy seat- I don’t think it is difficult to understand the distinction.

I agree that the images were not all forbidden. As you mentioned, the same God who instructed no graven images in Exodus 20:4-5, then commands them to make two cherubims of gold in Exodus 25:18-20.

And then we have the Temple. It had carved palm trees, flowers, pomegranates, and the large bronze "molten sea" was on twelve bronze oxen. Lions were on the bases of the lavers. So the question is then, were these things that God "winked at", were they things that the people did on their own, and God tolerated, or were they part of the design from heaven?

David gathered the materials to build the Temple, and when David gave Solomon the plans for the temple in 1 Chronicles 28:12 "he gave him the plans of all that the Spirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple"...lists the details weight of various things...and verse 19 "All this I have in writing as a result of the Lords hand on me, and he enabled me to understand all the details of the plan".

And then when the Temple was finished 1 Kings 8:10 says that "the glory of the Lord filled the house", and 1 Kings 9:3 God says "I have hallowed this house".

So I find it hard to accept that God was not pleased with images in their rightful place.

[donnyto989]

The distinction matters. Religious art tells a story or evokes emotion. An icon is meant to be a window into the divine, not just decoration. The theology behind icons is specific. The Council of Nicaea in 787 made that clear. Art does not carry that same weight or purpose.

That said, someone who already believes religious images are forbidden will see no difference between the two. The intent of the creator or user does not matter to them. Only the object itself.

I see the difference. But I also understand why others do not. The split usually comes down to whether you grew up with icons or without them.

[MattY]

The distinction matters. Religious art tells a story or evokes emotion. An icon is meant to be a window into the divine, not just decoration. The theology behind icons is specific. The Council of Nicaea in 787 made that clear. Art does not carry that same weight or purpose.

That said, someone who already believes religious images are forbidden will see no difference between the two. The intent of the creator or user does not matter to them. Only the object itself.

I see the difference. But I also understand why others do not. The split usually comes down to whether you grew up with icons or without them.

I see the difference that you're describing (although I don't know all the rules JayP mentioned for what makes something an icon), and I don't have a problem with art in general or religious art per se; I just don't think icons actually are windows into the divine and I reject their use. The Orthodox argument is that icons of Christ, the Theotokos, angels, and saints should be venerated and kissed, and that this honor passes through the image to the person depicted; I reject this as unscriptural. This is the same thing that people who worship idols think; no one who bowed down to Baal thought the image itself was Baal, but they believed that their prayers passed through the image to the god himself. (I'm not accusing Orthodox or Catholics of outright or intentional idolatry in all cases, but just of misappropriating pagan theology of images into Christianity). They're just pieces of art that people are improperly venerating.

[PeterG]

My attempt, based on a recent conversation, was to elicit thoughts on if one recognized (and how) a difference literally between religious art and formal icons. I like both. But a painting like Tanner’s Annunciation, while IMHO great art, is NOT an icon. Meanwhile, I have many orthodox icons hanging on the wall. They are not icons BECAUSE they are religious art, they are icons because they follow specific, traditional representations and presentations. For example, icons are never signed, or the consistent use of red slippers for the Theotokos. I suspect this audience may not be aware of the “rules” and the different stages if Iconographt.

This is an interesting topic. Would you say that icons comprise a distinct category of religious art, or that icons and religious art are entirely different things? Could it be that icons are religious art, but also something more?

[barnhart]

I have a question for those from a tradition that does not utilize icons or finds them distracting or idolatrous. Is there a possibility of your own religious expression crossing the line and becoming a different form of icon?

[Valerie]

I have a question for those from a tradition that does not utilize icons or finds them distracting or idolatrous. Is there a possibility of your own religious expression crossing the line and becoming a different form of icon?

I feel like it’s helpful to define what idolatry is, in each person’s opinion in order to determine that.

[barnhart]

I have a question for those from a tradition that does not utilize icons or finds them distracting or idolatrous. Is there a possibility of your own religious expression crossing the line and becoming a different form of icon?

I feel like it’s helpful to define what idolatry is, in each person’s opinion in order to determine that.

If that is a problem just delete the word "idolatrous" and read the question without it.

[Valerie]

I have a question for those from a tradition that does not utilize icons or finds them distracting or idolatrous. Is there a possibility of your own religious expression crossing the line and becoming a different form of icon?

I feel like it’s helpful to define what idolatry is, in each person’s opinion in order to determine that.

If that is a problem just delete the word "idolatrous" and read the question without it.

That helps. The church we’ve been attending the last decade, no I cannot see anything like that on display or focused on that would even come close to “a/the line”.

Honestly, I’m trying to discern in our previous denomination (more Pentecostal/Charismatic) I would say “some” in the Church seemed to be chasing “the fire” and accepting some things we were not comfortable with that I would say were crossing the line (imo) - some of the signs & wonders they thought were of the Holy Spirit, seemed counterfeit & a distraction. These were not in our own church but when your Pentecostal/Charismatic it encompasses many churches & people under that umbrella. At least our pastor cautioned against chasing the fire.

These type of churches were not ones to embrace icons or statues, a typical symbol hanging on the wall would be a Cross with a dove on it (dove of course representing Holy Spirit).

[Soloist]

Honestly, I’m terribly uncomfortable with some of the Baptist churches and how they obsess over the cross. It’s like the epitome of missing it to focus so heavily on two pieces of wood and completely missed the point of cross bearing.
I feel like it borders on idolatry.