Divorce question

[JohnH]

From indications of social media posts, Susan makes a profession and believes God is blessing her.

In that case I would ask the person out for coffee etc and just talk to them about Christian life, and perhaps ask them what God is doing in their life.

Note that some people have left our church and live in cohabitation / fornication complete with child out of wedlock. Yet they regularly post Bible verses on WhatsApp and talk like they are a Bible believing Christian.

One waxed poetic about how she’s learned Jesus is all about grace and loving people, not rules and regulations and about looking right. Whilst I agree, I have a hard time understanding how someone can think they are a believer yet keep choosing to live in obvious sin.

Another example is a girl from a family from my old church (cons. Beachy type people, not Holdemans). They slid closer to the world. Their youngest has now had two children out of wedlock. Yet she proudly proclaims Philippians 4:13, complete with a tattoo. I honestly just can’t figure out the mindset of people like that.

Note that I have far more respect for both of those girls than someone who commits adultery and marries their affair partner and then decides to have a kid out of such an unholy union.

[ohio jones]

I would say no to all questions. Would not interact at all with any of them.

Would that include interacting with them on MennoNet? Not that anyone here is in that precise situation afaik.

[Anthony]

I would say no to all questions. Would not interact at all with any of them.

Would that include interacting with them on MennoNet? Not that anyone here is in that precise situation afaik.

I was imagining if they were a real life ex-church member or friend, i would cut them off and stop talking to them for something like this. If they happened to post on MennoNet I might block.

[Bootstrap]

Whenever I see a thread like this, I think the role of discernment by the Holy Spirit, in the local church, is essential.

I don't think the New Testament gives us a precise rule book that answers all the questions and all the possible scenarios. I don't think it tries to provide anything like that.

Obviously, we want to follow the New Testament teaching where it does teach clearly. But prayer and discernment are so important when dealing with real lives.

[Szdfan]

Whenever I see a thread like this, I think the role of discernment by the Holy Spirit, in the local church, is essential.

I don't think the New Testament gives us a precise rule book that answers all the questions and all the possible scenarios. I don't think it tries to provide anything like that.

Obviously, we want to follow the New Testament teaching where it does teach clearly. But prayer and discernment are so important when dealing with real lives.

Whenever I see a thread like this, I think the role of discernment by the Holy Spirit, in the local church, is essential.

I don't think the New Testament gives us a precise rule book that answers all the questions and all the possible scenarios. I don't think it tries to provide anything like that.

Obviously, we want to follow the New Testament teaching where it does teach clearly. But prayer and discernment are so important when dealing with real lives.

Whenever I come across conversations like this thread I think of the Jesus’s parable in Luke 18:9-14:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

What does grace towards Susan and Peter look like? Or is this a situation where grace is undeserved?

[JohnH]

I suppose I’d ask what grace towards Henry and Anna looks like.

The Bible is pretty clear about unrepentant adultery.

[Ernie]

What does grace towards Susan and Peter look like? Or is this a situation where grace is undeserved?

Romans 2:4
"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?"

God's goodness and grace leads us to repentance. Grace abounds where there is repentance.

[Anthony]

Whenever I see a thread like this, I think the role of discernment by the Holy Spirit, in the local church, is essential.

I don't think the New Testament gives us a precise rule book that answers all the questions and all the possible scenarios. I don't think it tries to provide anything like that.

Obviously, we want to follow the New Testament teaching where it does teach clearly. But prayer and discernment are so important when dealing with real lives.

Whenever I see a thread like this, I think the role of discernment by the Holy Spirit, in the local church, is essential.

I don't think the New Testament gives us a precise rule book that answers all the questions and all the possible scenarios. I don't think it tries to provide anything like that.

Obviously, we want to follow the New Testament teaching where it does teach clearly. But prayer and discernment are so important when dealing with real lives.

Whenever I come across conversations like this thread I think of the Jesus’s parable in Luke 18:9-14:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

What does grace towards Susan and Peter look like? Or is this a situation where grace is undeserved?

I dont even get how Luke 18:9-14 is relevant, theres other substantially more relevant verses. Like what to do with unrepentant sinners in your church. Maybe the "let he without sin cast the first stone" story is more applicable.

Anyway, " is this grace towards Susan and Peter ", yes.

What would you do in this situation?

[R7ehr]

What does grace towards Susan and Peter look like? Or is this a situation where grace is undeserved?

The verses that came to my mind, are Romans 6:1-2: "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

I think we should treat them as we would any other person living in sin. We can be polite, cordial, we can be friendly and kind. We can use wisdom and tact. But in no wise, should we ever affirm what they are doing is acceptable.

[Bootstrap]

Whenever I see a thread like this, I think the role of discernment by the Holy Spirit, in the local church, is essential.

I don't think the New Testament gives us a precise rule book that answers all the questions and all the possible scenarios. I don't think it tries to provide anything like that.

Obviously, we want to follow the New Testament teaching where it does teach clearly. But prayer and discernment are so important when dealing with real lives.

Let me build on this a little in light of further comments. I don't think we should encourage people to continue in sin, and I don't think we should use grace as an excuse for sin. But sometimes discernment is needed to know how to repent in the first place, and all of the people involved matter.

In the OP, we have a couple who were each previously married. They are now married to each other and have a child. What are their obligations to each other and to that child? Some of that may depend on what is going on with the original spouses - are they available to restore the first marriages or not?

There is NO example in the NT of the church breaking up a marriage to try to restore an earlier one. I assume that there were people in second marriages in the early church. When Jesus talks to the woman at the well, he definitely speaks of new life that would lead to repentance, but there is no indication he would ask her to return to a previous husband.

Deuteronomy 24 explicitly says that if a wife has married another man, she may not return to her first husband. This seems designed to protect the second marriage.

So I think these things should flavor our discernment and our response. If we want to create a set of guidelines for these cases, I also think it's important to take things like these into account:

1. The "except for adultery" clauses in Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 9:19.
2. "Not bound" and "free" in 1 Corinthians 7. If you read the chapter as a whole, people who are "not bound" are free to marry. And that seems to include this part: "But if the unbelieving spouse leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace."

To me, at least, a lot of people and relationships are involved in any situation like this, and discernment is needed to ask how best to repent and move forward in righteousness. I'm not convinced that there's a simple rule that says returning to the original spouse is always possible or right.

I realize that most Conservative Mennonites see this differently.