Interested in learning about Holdemans

[ken_sylvania]

Well, the Bible does teach us to hold all things in common, but Christians keep finding excuses to just dodge that part of the Bible.

Can a church be a true church if the majority of it's members ignore plain Bible teaching?

That’s a good question. My answer is that I don’t consider myself the authority on plain Bible teaching.

That's not an answer to my question though.

[ohio jones]

Pure church does not equal "One true church." One speaks of organizational purity. The other speaks of organizational exclusivity. They are not equivalent.

Pure Church Movement is a collection of 90+ Anabaptists groups, some of which are much more sectarian than the Holdemans. All are horse and buggy.

Holdemans do not have a goal of organisational exclusivity but do have a goal of organisational purity. In practice, the latter often leads to the former, simply because it’s hard to do things with other people who don’t like our own practices.

For example, I would be quite useless to your school and ministries since I can’t partake to photography and would think of it as a spiritual danger for pupils to use it. Yet you might be instructing them to do so as part of their curriculum and assignments. Likewise, perhaps you have music class with instruments taught. I couldn’t be part of that either. And on and on.

Now that his church has a pipe organ, I assume music students will be given opportunity to play it, even if it isn't used for worship services.

[JohnH]

That's not an answer to my question though.

I have an opinion that Acts 2 contains important practices for Christians to hold to. However, nearly all Christians including Anabaptists and my own denomination don't agree with me. So I yield my opinion of this and accept that the general direction of my church, and of the "invisible church" as a whole, is to ignore what I think the practices are taught there.

I have opinions about many other doctrinal and practice topics, but they are just my opinions.

[Ernie]

I believe that there is one true church that is comprised of all those who are saved. This could also be referred to as the catholic church or the universal church.
I believe in a visible church. The people in the church (who have not gone on to their eternal reward) are visible.
I believe in visible congregations and visible groups that are recognized by God as being churches since they are under the Lordship of Christ, and consequently, they have authority to function as a church. (think Revelation 2-3) I don't believe that people can just say, "we are a church" and that automatically makes them a church or part of the true church.

Does this differ from Holdemans and from the other groups you mention?

It differs in terminology since Holdemans don’t use “the church” to refer to the invisible church / “Israel of God” etc

Now, when it comes to specific congregations Holdemans have a much narrower view of the range of doctrine and practice. Basically they feel full communion is required. Practice doesn’t have to be identical, but congregations that are part of “the church” (the visible church) must be aligned enough to share pulpits, allow visiting ministers to conduct revivals, have communion, marry each other, and affirm each other’s excommunications and reacceptances.

This is the same within the various Anabaptist constituencies, ultra-conservative to progressive-conservative.

They also don’t have any concept of a “church split” where a church simply fissions and each side has a gripe with the other. In Holdeman circles that would be endlessly worked on until unity were achieved and/or individuals causing the conflict were dealt with. (That might mean moving to a different place, coming under discipline, or simply being pastored / discipled).

This is different. We sometimes agree to disagree. Some Anabaptist fissions don't agree to disagree and then they stop sharing pulpits, communing together, etc.

Does agreeing to disagree ever happen in Holdeman churches.

???

[Ernie]

That's not an answer to my question though.

I have an opinion that Acts 2 contains important practices for Christians to hold to. However, nearly all Christians including Anabaptists and my own denomination don't agree with me. So I yield my opinion of this and accept that the general direction of my church, and of the "invisible church" as a whole, is to ignore what I think the practices are taught there.

I have opinions about many other doctrinal and practice topics, but they are just my opinions.

Well, the Bible does teach us to hold all things in common, but Christians keep finding excuses to just dodge that part of the Bible.

Are you saying this is an opinion? It didn't sound like that.

How do you decide what to yield on and what not? And are there things that the Holdeman church yields on in relation to other Christians or is there no such yielding?

In the conservative Anabaptist churches, we are constantly "yielding" on things as we relate to other church groups. We may have strong convictions about certain things as an individual or congregation, but we don't force others to do like us in order to share pulpits with us or commune with us. (within a certain range of course). It sounds like Holdeman's do the same thing within their fellowship.

[Ernie]

Let's say a group of Christians (not Holdeman) would decide to have the same standard and way of conducting church as Holdeman's, except for excommunicating everyone who leaves the church, and rebaptizing everyone who joins the church. How do you think the Holdeman's would relate to such a group?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Pure church does not equal "One true church." One speaks of organizational purity. The other speaks of organizational exclusivity. They are not equivalent.

Pure Church Movement is a collection of 90+ Anabaptists groups, some of which are much more sectarian than the Holdemans. All are horse and buggy.

Holdemans do not have a goal of organisational exclusivity but do have a goal of organisational purity. In practice, the latter often leads to the former, simply because it’s hard to do things with other people who don’t like our own practices.

For example, I would be quite useless to your school and ministries since I can’t partake to photography and would think of it as a spiritual danger for pupils to use it. Yet you might be instructing them to do so as part of their curriculum and assignments. Likewise, perhaps you have music class with instruments taught. I couldn’t be part of that either. And on and on.

Now that his church has a pipe organ, I assume music students will be given opportunity to play it, even if it isn't used for worship services.

Only when the building is officially unoccupied. It came with the building. I guess it will work for awhile, but we are not going to maintain it, so when it stops working, that is it. We have a policy of absolutely no instruments during church functions. We actually removed the piano.

I am too busy removing the vestiges of idolatry from the building to worry about an organ we are not going to use.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Pure church does not equal "One true church." One speaks of organizational purity. The other speaks of organizational exclusivity. They are not equivalent.

Pure Church Movement is a collection of 90+ Anabaptists groups, some of which are much more sectarian than the Holdemans. All are horse and buggy.

Holdemans do not have a goal of organisational exclusivity but do have a goal of organisational purity. In practice, the latter often leads to the former, simply because it’s hard to do things with other people who don’t like our own practices.

For example, I would be quite useless to your school and ministries since I can’t partake to photography and would think of it as a spiritual danger for pupils to use it. Yet you might be instructing them to do so as part of their curriculum and assignments. Likewise, perhaps you have music class with instruments taught. I couldn’t be part of that either. And on and on.

Now that his church has a pipe organ, I assume music students will be given opportunity to play it, even if it isn't used for worship services.

For the record, we all (Church, School) got a great deal on a “surplus “ Roman Catholic Church and school complex. We were clearly outgrowing our present site. We just had our fire inspection, minimal work required to get it in service. Almost a full square block of land, a 260 seat church and a three story school with a gym.

Hopefully, will have first service in a few weeks.

[mike]

For the record, we all (Church, School) got a great deal on a “surplus “ Roman Catholic Church and school complex. We were clearly outgrowing our present site. We just had our fire inspection, minimal work required to get it in service. Almost a full square block of land, a 260 seat church and a three story school with a gym.

Hopefully, will have first service in a few weeks.

Fantastic. I hope to see that someday. My daughter was part of the SMBI team that did some cleaning there a few weeks ago.

[R7ehr]

Pure Church Movement is a collection of 90+ Anabaptists groups, some of which are much more sectarian than the Holdemans. All are horse and buggy.

Holdemans do not have a goal of organisational exclusivity but do have a goal of organisational purity. In practice, the latter often leads to the former, simply because it’s hard to do things with other people who don’t like our own practices.

For example, I would be quite useless to your school and ministries since I can’t partake to photography and would think of it as a spiritual danger for pupils to use it. Yet you might be instructing them to do so as part of their curriculum and assignments. Likewise, perhaps you have music class with instruments taught. I couldn’t be part of that either. And on and on.

Now that his church has a pipe organ, I assume music students will be given opportunity to play it, even if it isn't used for worship services.

For the record, we all (Church, School) got a great deal on a “surplus “ Roman Catholic Church and school complex. We were clearly outgrowing our present site. We just had our fire inspection, minimal work required to get it in service. Almost a full square block of land, a 260 seat church and a three story school with a gym.

Hopefully, will have first service in a few weeks.

Wow. What was the purchase amount?