High School and College for Plain Anabaptists: Advantages and Disadvantages

[JohnH]

Theres many people in my setting i know who im sure would of become successful lawyers, tech founders, doctors, etc, who are currently working as plumbers. Theres some who would of only been a low level trade worker, or maybe ended up in jail without the cohesive community guidance they’ve inherited. The “bottom” and “top” of Plain communities are very close in income, status, and lifestyle. Higher education increases the divide between people massively.

An assumption in the world is that it's somehow better for a highly intelligent, gifted person to be a lawyer than a plumber.

I would argue that things are much better off with excellent plumbers, electricians, roofers, grocery store keepers, and so forth.

I think i generally agree, but things will shift fast if you allow people to enter college. Most people do not believe that its better to be a successful roofer over a successful laywer. I have talked to some people who have left my church setting, and they are struggling with this change in career perspective.

I notice Plain people have no hangups about the worldly status of being a roofer at age 30. The ones who have left my church group have a noticeable insecurity about their lack of education and low status blue collar job.

The irony is a guy at age 30 with a small roofing crew makes significantly more money (not to mention job security) compared to a typical lawyer stuck in &@#%law (as they call it) or working as an Of Counsel.

[Judas Maccabeus]

What do they call someone who graduates with a 3.0? A graduate. My daughter graduated with a 2.25. She now has a master's and a brilliant career among refugees, teaching ESOL. They stop asking about your GPA soon after you graduate.

That's nice for her, but if we're going to praise how wonderful higher education is, then that means also praising acacdemic achievement and excellence, which necessarily means looking down on a lack of academic achievement.

Elevating one's self about such things is contrary to the traditional Anabaptist way of thinking, as it seems like pride. That's yet another reason more conservative Anabaptist eschew higher education. Pursuing Master's degrees, Ph.Ds, and trying to get into top schools seems very much like pride (although I can think of some scenarios where it's not).

This first paragraph is exactly correct. Its incredible that no one has thought through the more subtle second order effects of opening up higher education to their church setting. In the world there is a brutal status sorting based on academic achievement, starting from the earliest grades. We can already see the subtle effects on this as Plain groups have transitioned from family farms over to businesses, where the business owners are on a higher echelon compared to workers. This only gets worse with higher education attainment.

Theres many people in my setting i know who im sure would of become successful lawyers, tech founders, doctors, etc, who are currently working as plumbers. Theres some who would of only been a low level trade worker, or maybe ended up in jail without the cohesive community guidance they’ve inherited. The “bottom” and “top” of Plain communities are very close in income, status, and lifestyle. Higher education increases the divide between people massively.

Also pretending things like GPA dont matter in an academic setting is naive, you are literally gatekept from schools and programs based on your GPA. Maybe the #1 most important result in your whole school career is your GPA.

I am talking about a post-academic career setting. I have NEVER been asked what my GPA was in like 35 years. Only that i passed the boards, graduated, and got a license. I would never encourage a young person to go to college unless they are pursuing a career that needs it.

Furthermore, I really do not think the existence of higher education increases the economic divide massively. In some cases, it levels it, as people without family connections can achieve what they never could achieve, unless they have family connections. BTW, the COGICM is noted for having families that have "family" business connections.

In some settings, ownership of land has created more economic disparity than education ever did.

[JohnH]

Furthermore, I really do not think the existence of higher education increases the economic divide massively. In some cases, it levels it, as people without family connections can achieve what they never could achieve, unless they have family connections. BTW, the COGICM is noted for having families that have "family" business connections.

I'm not sure where you "noted" that... but I would imagine every other group of plain people is the same way; certainly the ones I have been were. Some groups are notoriously clannish, others are less so.

In some settings, ownership of land has created more economic disparity than education ever did.

Well, the Bible does teach us to hold all things in common, but Christians keep finding excuses to just dodge that part of the Bible.

[Anthony]

I was posting a massive reply but accidentally refreshed and its all lost.

Plain communities work in unscalable businesses, making wealth gaps relatively small. The richest mennonite in my area runs a 30 person manufacturing company netting maybe a million per year. The richest non-mennonite is worth over a billion.

Also note that higher education increases the possibility to gain in status/money if you are already smart and ambitious. If you are not so smart or ambitious you will stay at the bottom while people excel beyond you. I dont see how higher education access decreases inequality overall, it just gives some extra smart people a chance.

[ohio jones]

My denomination still does 8th grade education, except in areas with a hostile state government that won’t respect the Wisconsin v Yoder decision, where we go to age 16 (tends to be middle of grade
10).

Let's not diminish the value of community colleges. These schools have 2 year programs that lead to all sorts of opportunities. My wife got her ADN and practiced as an RN for years before she got her BSN. Ours offers HVAC programs, programs that lead to licensure in skilled trades, and all at a reasonable cost. Most counties have or participate in these.

If I was talking to a high school student, I would point this out as a good direction. Once again, stay at home, stay in your home church, and graduate debt-free with a useful skill in hand. In my county, it is free for residents.

My wife went to such a school. Zero problems getting in with her 10th gr. dropout education.

It's interesting that Holdemen only go to 8th grade, but Holdewomen go to community colleges.

[JohnH]

I was posting a massive reply but accidentally refreshed and its all lost.

Plain communities work in unscalable businesses, making wealth gaps relatively small. The richest mennonite in my area runs a 30 person manufacturing company netting maybe a million per year. The richest non-mennonite is worth over a billion.

For a while, my denomination had a concept of "too big of an operation" (mostly applying to non-farming businesses) being a source of spiritual danger. So if anyone had the slightest possible issues, they would be encouraged to scale down: split off the business with partners or family members, sell it off to employees, or just stop trying to expand.

It also used to be disgraceful to earn more than $100k as an employee, but I guess inflation has bumped the number up quite a bit. Earning a $500k salary would be disgraceful, though.

Business owners who are doing very well (in that 30 person company netting a million per year) seem to be expected to provide lots of jobs to church members who need them.

[JohnH]

My denomination still does 8th grade education, except in areas with a hostile state government that won’t respect the Wisconsin v Yoder decision, where we go to age 16 (tends to be middle of grade
10).

Let's not diminish the value of community colleges. These schools have 2 year programs that lead to all sorts of opportunities. My wife got her ADN and practiced as an RN for years before she got her BSN. Ours offers HVAC programs, programs that lead to licensure in skilled trades, and all at a reasonable cost. Most counties have or participate in these.

If I was talking to a high school student, I would point this out as a good direction. Once again, stay at home, stay in your home church, and graduate debt-free with a useful skill in hand. In my county, it is free for residents.

My wife went to such a school. Zero problems getting in with her 10th gr. dropout education.

It's interesting that Holdemen only go to 8th grade, but Holdewomen go to community colleges.

An astute observation; nearly everyone who goes to community college is indeed a woman. They would just go to 8th grade (or 10th grade dropout, for California), obtain a GED or equivalent, take the ACT or SAT or other entrance exams, and matriculate directly into community college.

[Anthony]

I was posting a massive reply but accidentally refreshed and its all lost.

Plain communities work in unscalable businesses, making wealth gaps relatively small. The richest mennonite in my area runs a 30 person manufacturing company netting maybe a million per year. The richest non-mennonite is worth over a billion.

For a while, my denomination had a concept of "too big of an operation" (mostly applying to non-farming businesses) being a source of spiritual danger. So if anyone had the slightest possible issues, they would be encouraged to scale down: split off the business with partners or family members, sell it off to employees, or just stop trying to expand.

It also used to be disgraceful to earn more than $100k as an employee, but I guess inflation has bumped the number up quite a bit. Earning a $500k salary would be disgraceful, though.

Business owners who are doing very well (in that 30 person company netting a million per year) seem to be expected to provide lots of jobs to church members who need them.

The amish near me still have that concept, ive noticed that if a business scales up past a certain point the owner is under constant scrutiny and he trips up on church issues much more frequently. I assume a way to prevent pride and “cut him down to size”. Or maybe its just impossible to scale up that high without breaking a few church rules on technology.

Do the holdemans do something similar? Why’d they change their policy?

[ohio jones]

Plain communities work in unscalable businesses, making wealth gaps relatively small. The richest mennonite in my area runs a 30 person manufacturing company netting maybe a million per year. The richest non-mennonite is worth over a billion.

You'll find people in the larger Plain communities who have scaled the unscalable.

[JohnH]

The amish near me still have that concept, ive noticed that if a business scales up past a certain point the owner is under constant scrutiny and he trips up on church issues much more frequently. I assume a way to prevent pride and “cut him down to size”. Or maybe its just impossible to scale up that high without breaking a few church rules on technology.

Do the holdemans do something similar? Why’d they change their policy?

My "for a while" was tempered by the fact it seems to be happening less lately.. but that may be do to poorer economic conditions meaning the guys with the bigger operations aren't just stacking cash like they used to. Or there is a little more understanding of them having to either scale bigger or become unprofitable (which is a complaint I hear from some farmers or business owners, such as farmers whose banks tell them their loans will go bad if they don't scale up).

There is a billionaire somewhere in our conference. (Technically a family, not just one guy.) Purely from owning a lot of otherwise not very valuable land that ended up having (I think) a valuable quarry. You would not be able to identify them as different than anyone else if you met them.