High School and College for Plain Anabaptists: Advantages and Disadvantages

[Judas Maccabeus]

I will say this, maybe it's because of this urban setting we are in, but none of our young people go away to a secular college, if they're in higher education, they remain connected to their church, remain connected to their family, and have the advice and encouragement of ministry and others still giving input into their lives. Virtually any major or program is available within a 30 minute drive.

It would be my contention that the dormitory experience is probably more destructive than the actual education. So far, we've had good results with young people that are in education, and living at home.

Most plain Mennonites aren't in an urban setting, and so for nearly all plain people, going to college means being far away from home.

Part of my opinion on this matter is (back when I was in a moderate-conservative church setting) that every single person who went to college fell away from the faith (as in no longer was Anabaptist at all, although some remained nominally Christian). That really soured me on the value of higher education.

If people with higher education are somehow badly needed in plain circles... win more seekers. But the groups with nobody past 8th grade education seem to be just fine.

and frequently rely on us for things they cannot do.

[JohnH]

and frequently rely on us for things they cannot do.

And you rely on the police and military to do things you do not want to do.

[Ernie]

An economy that requires going deeply into student-loan debt and attending another 4 or 6 years of college in order to to have a job that can sustain one's self or one's family doesn't seem like something worth pursuing.

In fact, this is supposedly a major crisis in America. There are always reports of not enough qualified or diligent workers, alongside lots of reports of college grads unable to find jobs and being crushed under student-loan payments.

Here are the stats for what percentage of each generation are working a job that does not require a college degree:

Boomers- ~25-35%, but many worked in non-degree jobs earlier in their careers
Older Millennials / Gen X ~30–40%
Younger Millennials ~40–45%
Gen Z college graduates ~40–50%

Many people benefit personally from post-secondary education, even if they get a job that does not require a degree, but many others say their college was a waste of money. I think the numbers above explain why. Many people go to college and can't think of any benefit it was to them personally.

Here are the percentages of the US population who have degrees.
Silent Generation ~15%
Baby Boomers ~25%
Generation X ~29–34%
Millennials ~39–44%
Generation Z* ~40%+ (still rising)

[Judas Maccabeus]

I think this depends a lot on where you live and where you envision your children living. If the answer is in an economy with opportunities that sustain people with an 8th grade education, it makes little sense to do anything differently. If the answer is not necessarily in that type environment, different choices may be in order.

Let's not diminish the value of community colleges. These schools have 2 year programs that lead to all sorts of opportunities. My wife got her ADN and practiced as an RN for years before she got her BSN. Ours offers HVAC programs, programs that lead to licensure in skilled trades, and all at a reasonable cost. Most counties have or participate in these.

If I was talking to a high school student, I would point this out as a good direction. Once again, stay at home, stay in your home church, and graduate debt-free with a useful skill in hand. In my county, it is free for residents.

[barnhart]

I think this depends a lot on where you live and where you envision your children living. If the answer is in an economy with opportunities that sustain people with an 8th grade education, it makes little sense to do anything differently. If the answer is not necessarily in that type environment, different choices may be in order.

Let's not diminish the value of community colleges. These schools have 2 year programs that lead to all sorts of opportunities. My wife got her ADN and practiced as an RN for years before she got her BSN. Ours offers HVAC programs, programs that lead to licensure in skilled trades, and all at a reasonable cost. Most counties have or participate in these.

If I was talking to a high school student, I would point this out as a good direction. Once again, stay at home, stay in your home church, and graduate debt-free with a useful skill in hand. In my county, it is free for residents.

Yes. Where I live legal residents who go to state or city schools will pay very little, unless your income is very high.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I think this depends a lot on where you live and where you envision your children living. If the answer is in an economy with opportunities that sustain people with an 8th grade education, it makes little sense to do anything differently. If the answer is not necessarily in that type environment, different choices may be in order.

Let's not diminish the value of community colleges. These schools have 2 year programs that lead to all sorts of opportunities. My wife got her ADN and practiced as an RN for years before she got her BSN. Ours offers HVAC programs, programs that lead to licensure in skilled trades, and all at a reasonable cost. Most counties have or participate in these.

If I was talking to a high school student, I would point this out as a good direction. Once again, stay at home, stay in your home church, and graduate debt-free with a useful skill in hand. In my county, it is free for residents.

Yes. Where I live legal residents who go to state or city schools will pay very little, unless your income is very high.

The value of these schools is underestimated and “danger” overestimated.

[JohnH]

I think this depends a lot on where you live and where you envision your children living. If the answer is in an economy with opportunities that sustain people with an 8th grade education, it makes little sense to do anything differently. If the answer is not necessarily in that type environment, different choices may be in order.

Let's not diminish the value of community colleges. These schools have 2 year programs that lead to all sorts of opportunities. My wife got her ADN and practiced as an RN for years before she got her BSN. Ours offers HVAC programs, programs that lead to licensure in skilled trades, and all at a reasonable cost. Most counties have or participate in these.

If I was talking to a high school student, I would point this out as a good direction. Once again, stay at home, stay in your home church, and graduate debt-free with a useful skill in hand. In my county, it is free for residents.

My wife went to such a school. Zero problems getting in with her 10th gr. dropout education.

It was not a wholesome spiritual environment according to her but she was mature enough at age 25 or so to deal with it.

Unfortunately, her friend succumbed and decided to date her (married) professor twice her age, lived with him, then flunked out of college. That wasn’t good marketing for college to Holdemans. (She was from a seeker family, used to teach school, quite bright - she had a root of offence tho in wanting to learn to play piano, and things went downhill from there.) College classes provided a fertile ground for doubt about the existence of God to fester, promoted by professors who seemed to have an agenda to steer Christian students that way.

Overall in our circles young people aren’t struggling to have a valuable skill and don’t really need community college for that. I am considering a few classes myself though given the reasonable cost.

[Anthony]

What do they call someone who graduates with a 3.0? A graduate. My daughter graduated with a 2.25. She now has a master's and a brilliant career among refugees, teaching ESOL. They stop asking about your GPA soon after you graduate.

That's nice for her, but if we're going to praise how wonderful higher education is, then that means also praising acacdemic achievement and excellence, which necessarily means looking down on a lack of academic achievement.

Elevating one's self about such things is contrary to the traditional Anabaptist way of thinking, as it seems like pride. That's yet another reason more conservative Anabaptist eschew higher education. Pursuing Master's degrees, Ph.Ds, and trying to get into top schools seems very much like pride (although I can think of some scenarios where it's not).

This first paragraph is exactly correct. Its incredible that no one has thought through the more subtle second order effects of opening up higher education to their church setting. In the world there is a brutal status sorting based on academic achievement, starting from the earliest grades. We can already see the subtle effects on this as Plain groups have transitioned from family farms over to businesses, where the business owners are on a higher echelon compared to workers. This only gets worse with higher education attainment.

Theres many people in my setting i know who im sure would of become successful lawyers, tech founders, doctors, etc, who are currently working as plumbers. Theres some who would of only been a low level trade worker, or maybe ended up in jail without the cohesive community guidance they’ve inherited. The “bottom” and “top” of Plain communities are very close in income, status, and lifestyle. Higher education increases the divide between people massively.

Also pretending things like GPA dont matter in an academic setting is naive, you are literally gatekept from schools and programs based on your GPA. Maybe the #1 most important result in your whole school career is your GPA.

[JohnH]

Theres many people in my setting i know who im sure would of become successful lawyers, tech founders, doctors, etc, who are currently working as plumbers. Theres some who would of only been a low level trade worker, or maybe ended up in jail without the cohesive community guidance they’ve inherited. The “bottom” and “top” of Plain communities are very close in income, status, and lifestyle. Higher education increases the divide between people massively.

An assumption in the world is that it's somehow better for a highly intelligent, gifted person to be a lawyer than a plumber.

I would argue that things are much better off with excellent plumbers, electricians, roofers, grocery store keepers, and so forth.

[Anthony]

Theres many people in my setting i know who im sure would of become successful lawyers, tech founders, doctors, etc, who are currently working as plumbers. Theres some who would of only been a low level trade worker, or maybe ended up in jail without the cohesive community guidance they’ve inherited. The “bottom” and “top” of Plain communities are very close in income, status, and lifestyle. Higher education increases the divide between people massively.

An assumption in the world is that it's somehow better for a highly intelligent, gifted person to be a lawyer than a plumber.

I would argue that things are much better off with excellent plumbers, electricians, roofers, grocery store keepers, and so forth.

I think i generally agree, but things will shift fast if you allow people to enter college. Most people do not believe that its better to be a successful roofer over a successful laywer. I have talked to some people who have left my church setting, and they are struggling with this change in career perspective.

I notice Plain people have no hangups about the worldly status of being a roofer at age 30. The ones who have left my church group have a noticeable insecurity about their lack of education and low status blue collar job.