High School and College for Plain Anabaptists: Advantages and Disadvantages

[Ernie]

This could be spun off into a whole other discussion... I can see sadness on both sides... my own family story testifies to the unintended consequences of 8th grade only vs at least a HS education. I think some OO Amish would benefit from some HS education in their own schools or maybe home school style after the 1-room 8th grade only... (I would disagree somewhat with Kraybill's assertion in this piece, for ex this - “They’re creative, they’re savvy. They're doing well. So why would [they] need more than eighth grade?” Kraybill asks.
But why not send their children past the eighth grade in their own schools?
It's simply not necessary for their way of life, he says. It works for them." (Some of their businesses and its necessary interaction with the "English" world might strain this, if not now, maybe sometime, soon?)

Anyway back to the OP...

Can you tell us more about the unintended consequences?

"Consequences" might be too strong... more like missed opportunities? As it's personal family I'm thinking of I stay vague, and I was thinking of solely high school (not beyond). Here are a few things I received in high school that some of my siblings did not and that we weren't getting anywhere else. (I realize some these could be receive at home or even church, but in our situation they were not)
1. Anabaptist/church history and class discussions with other teenagers and our teacher (also a minister) on some of the practical implications (beyond plain dress)
2. Higher level maths/science (a sibling currently is studying some of this in community college and they're neurodiverse brain really gravitates towards this, but they're in their 40's... they've found their calling/vocation... but about 20-25yrs late... HS would have opened that door, instead they went nowhere past 8gr and wandered in the wilderness for yrs)
3. HS for me was finally the door out of the Charity/extended-family-only social bubble... it was maturing to interact with other people from other churches; other parts of the Menno world in our area.

Just a few and by no means a fix-all... my siblings would still have had issues and HS wouldn't have been the fix-all (some did go to HS and still...) But it may have opened doors for those that stopped at 8th gr or may have mitigated some other things but I realize this may be a game of what-if? Overall, I believe some kind of edu after 8th gr would be beneficial for many or some OO Anabaptists.

Thanks. That helps me understand.
Some of us who didn't go to school past 8th or 9th grade were inquisitive and adventuresome enough that we pursued education on our own, (books and seminars) even if not formally. At age 19 I began teaching school and did a lot of studying on my own in order to be a better teacher.
Eventually at age 29 I took a bit of formal schooling. But between age 15 and 29, I was learning and growing and storing away knowledge. I realize that not all personalities have what it takes to do what I did. Consequently, I can agree with you that more easily accessed ways to do high school would be beneficial for some.

[barnhart]

I think this depends a lot on where you live and where you envision your children living. If the answer is in an economy with opportunities that sustain people with an 8th grade education, it makes little sense to do anything differently. If the answer is not necessarily in that type environment, different choices may be in order.

[Grace]

After 9th grade my parents decided that I needed to stay home and help my mother. We lived on a large farm, and she helped a lot in the barn and with the field work. I was needed to help in the house and with those children younger than me. This decision made me sad as I loved school, but I see now it probably was the right decision. I learned a lot about homemaking and hard work. And at that time the public high school I attended was not a good influence for this young conservative Mennonite girl. In my early 20's I got a high school diploma through GED.

[joshuabgood]

I went to a CLE school and went to "high school." However, school came easily for me and I quickly learned to "find the answers" and fill in the blanks with minimal real learning. So, I "finished" the high school Lightunits in 2 years and "graduated" at 16. However, I was severely "short" on math education, science, and extended nonfiction writing.

My win at the school I went do was being surrounded by mature adults who pushed conversations about contemporary events, thoughtful theological conversations that were safe, and a culture of reading.

However, I would have loved to have the opportunity to go to a high school that had all the options of learning, labs, math, advanced history classes etc. I made up for and caught up on a bunch of things at the University but there is no question I started behind. And the odd thing is, I thought going to college I would be ahead of all the other "poor" public school students =).

[mike]

I went to a CLE school and went to "high school." However, school came easily for me and I quickly learned to "find the answers" and fill in the blanks with minimal real learning. So, I "finished" the high school Lightunits in 2 years and "graduated" at 16. However, I was severely "short" on math education, science, and extended nonfiction writing.

My win at the school I went do was being surrounded by mature adults who pushed conversations about contemporary events, thoughtful theological conversations that were safe, and a culture of reading.

However, I would have loved to have the opportunity to go to a high school that had all the options of learning, labs, math, advanced history classes etc. I made up for and caught up on a bunch of things at the University but there is no question I started behind. And the odd thing is, I thought going to college I would be ahead of all the other "poor" public school students =).

That's pretty funny. Well, you had more opportunity than I did. I had no option beyond 8th grade. I kept reading in the subjects I liked, mainly history, but I completely lacked in science and math. At Faith Builders, I took a day or two of some science class or other, but one look at the periodic table and I switched to another class. Later, I studied up enough to get a GED diploma, but when I started college, I needed my wife's help (high school grad) in introductory math.

[JohnH]

1. Anabaptist/church history and class discussions with other teenagers and our teacher (also a minister) on some of the practical implications (beyond plain dress)

Very, very few people who go to high school study Anabaptist history there.

2. Higher level maths/science (a sibling currently is studying some of this in community college and they're neurodiverse brain really gravitates towards this, but they're in their 40's... they've found their calling/vocation... but about 20-25yrs late... HS would have opened that door, instead they went nowhere past 8gr and wandered in the wilderness for yrs)

If someone wants to, it is quite easy to engage in self-study of math and science (particularly people who claim to be "neurodiverse", who sometimes don't thrive as well in a classroom setting).

3. HS for me was finally the door out of the Charity/extended-family-only social bubble... it was maturing to interact with other people from other churches; other parts of the Menno world in our area.

Plain Anabaptists generally speaking would not consider it a good thing that high school would help transition people out of plain churches into more worldly, liberal churches.

Overall, I believe some kind of edu after 8th gr would be beneficial for many or some OO Anabaptists.

So far, the people that try it simply lose more young people to the world, face employment/job training struggles due to lack of any experience or connections when they are 18/19, and overall it is a trait of liberal churches. I don't see how Old Orders would benefit from this at all, but I do see lots of detriments.

[Jazman]

Some of us who didn't go to school past 8th or 9th grade were inquisitive and adventuresome enough that we pursued education on our own, (books and seminars) even if not formally. At age 19 I began teaching school and did a lot of studying on my own in order to be a better teacher.
Eventually at age 29 I took a bit of formal schooling. But between age 15 and 29, I was learning and growing and storing away knowledge. I realize that not all personalities have what it takes to do what I did. Consequently, I can agree with you that more easily accessed ways to do high school would be beneficial for some.

I also failed to mention that the church we were in, had no Sunday School... and most were homeschooling (not sure I want to know what the curriculum was... there might be better options now) So that's where HS filled a lot in for me (especially the Bible/church history parts) and where some of my siblings missed out. I wonder if some OOs aren't missing some of that as well? I know my parents got 0 in these areas... (Maybe for some OOs/plain Menno schooling this has changed as well?)

[JohnH]

I think this depends a lot on where you live and where you envision your children living. If the answer is in an economy with opportunities that sustain people with an 8th grade education, it makes little sense to do anything differently. If the answer is not necessarily in that type environment, different choices may be in order.

An economy that requires going deeply into student-loan debt and attending another 4 or 6 years of college in order to to have a job that can sustain one's self or one's family doesn't seem like something worth pursuing.

In fact, this is supposedly a major crisis in America. There are always reports of not enough qualified or diligent workers, alongside lots of reports of college grads unable to find jobs and being crushed under student-loan payments.

Perhaps the Old Order system would be worth the rest of society looking at, understanding, and pursuing something similar.

[Judas Maccabeus]

In my experience, Plain people think people who have gone through higher education are very smart. Or they imagine a college education really confers some high level knowledge. I think most who have been in higher education know this is not true, but its the feeling i get from Plain anabaptists I know.

As a NMB friend said "In society, I'm a college dropout. In my church I'm considered an educated man."

Hahahah, very relatable. Its jarring having your status shift so dramatically when joining a church. This includes the downward shifts aswell as the upward shifts.

This reminds me of a time I met another NMB whos successfully been in my church for 15 years, people have mentioned his Electrical Engineering degree and current job as a cnc machinst/programmer as evidence of how smart he is. I got to talking to him and found out his degree is from a community college in Maryland, and his GPA was ~3.0. Not much to write home about if you’ve been through college, but im sure all the plain people were impressed anyway.

What do they call someone who graduates with a 3.0? A graduate. My daughter graduated with a 2.25. She now has a master's and a brilliant career among refugees, teaching ESOL. They stop asking about your GPA soon after you graduate.

[JohnH]

What do they call someone who graduates with a 3.0? A graduate. My daughter graduated with a 2.25. She now has a master's and a brilliant career among refugees, teaching ESOL. They stop asking about your GPA soon after you graduate.

That's nice for her, but if we're going to praise how wonderful higher education is, then that means also praising acacdemic achievement and excellence, which necessarily means looking down on a lack of academic achievement.

Elevating one's self about such things is contrary to the traditional Anabaptist way of thinking, as it seems like pride. That's yet another reason more conservative Anabaptist eschew higher education. Pursuing Master's degrees, Ph.Ds, and trying to get into top schools seems very much like pride (although I can think of some scenarios where it's not).