Benjamin Unruh

[Jazman]

I can recall two sermons in our church which covered this topic. I wish more conservative Mennonites would raise the issue of our history of relationship with power. I look forward to reading this. The most likely result of hiding history is the loss of the potential to learn from it.

Wow, you're blessed to have had at least 2... I've never heard this ever in any sermon at any church I've been part of and I can't imagine it ever being talked about at length or even in passing in the churches I'm at now... history or our relationship to power is for stuffy intellectual abstract thinking 'elites' (like those wicked MSUSA folk... we don't want to be like them!) or the 'politics' debate that you can only have elsewhere but never at church; in that space you must only focus on your individual salvation/relationship with God, sin management or getting more on fire!... oh, ancient Bible history can be used to those ends, but nothing else, especially anything that might expose something too close to home or that might have any 'political' baggage... (I don't believe this should be the case, but am only describing, with a touch of sarcasm).

[Jazman]

I agree that nonresistance must be maintained, but it is based on a true and vital relationship with God. I'm suggesting that by the time this solution was accepted, for many cultural Mennonites nonresistance was no more than a traditional cultural heritage, that the core of belief had been lost decades before. A fellow brother in our congregation here in Holmes County commented to me recently that he wonders sometimes how deep 'Christianity' goes for many of our own people, even in our congregation, where the Gospel is preached from the pulpit and taught in Sunday School. Hard times can bring about either unthinkable betrayal of our core beliefs, or strengthening of these beliefs. I will suggest that unchallenged beliefs can be difficult to maintain. "God has no grandchildren."

And troublingly, this seems to be the case with some plain and non-plain mennos in my area... I'm especially worried about the Amish... I'm observing from the sidelines, don't have close family connections, etc but it seems there's a strong leaning towards a certain political party that 'looks' christian but has 0 convictions about nonresistance/non-violence etc (in fact this 'christian' party has anti-convictions in this area...).

[JohnH]

And troublingly, this seems to be the case with some plain and non-plain mennos in my area... I'm especially worried about the Amish... I'm observing from the sidelines, don't have close family connections, etc but it seems there's a strong leaning towards a certain political party that 'looks' christian but has 0 convictions about nonresistance/non-violence etc (in fact this 'christian' party has anti-convictions in this area...).

I'm sure people bleating constantly about how bad Trump is and how great Democrats are will do a great job of convincing them!

[joshuabgood]

And troublingly, this seems to be the case with some plain and non-plain mennos in my area... I'm especially worried about the Amish... I'm observing from the sidelines, don't have close family connections, etc but it seems there's a strong leaning towards a certain political party that 'looks' christian but has 0 convictions about nonresistance/non-violence etc (in fact this 'christian' party has anti-convictions in this area...).

I'm sure people bleating constantly about how bad Trump is and how great Democrats are will do a great job of convincing them!

Who is doing that?

[JohnH]

And troublingly, this seems to be the case with some plain and non-plain mennos in my area... I'm especially worried about the Amish... I'm observing from the sidelines, don't have close family connections, etc but it seems there's a strong leaning towards a certain political party that 'looks' christian but has 0 convictions about nonresistance/non-violence etc (in fact this 'christian' party has anti-convictions in this area...).

I'm sure people bleating constantly about how bad Trump is and how great Democrats are will do a great job of convincing them!

Who is doing that?

I’m simply exhibiting that nonstop TDS isn’t persuasive.

I have persuaded multiple people to abandon Republican politics and seek the kingdom of heaven instead.
I haven’t done so by endless forum posts about how bad Trump is.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Another factor that may have contributed is fear or desperation. We are not at our best in terms of care and discernment when we are running away from an enemy. Soviet Communism was a very real enemy but this is not to excuse or deflect but to warn. I have a friend who is called to Jewish evangelism and he was taken back to learn Mennonites are listed with the worst offending religious groups by some anti-Semitism activist groups.

No surprise there. In their Logic Pro-Palestinian =Antisemitism. If you doubt/oppose the actions of the government of Israel, they will label you such. The idea that the religion is separate from the state is alien to their vocabulary, even though some Hasidic groups like Satmar oppose the establishment of the state.

That being said, in our area there are MCUSA linked groups that are involved in “Free Palestine “ demonstrations. Hence the link. Even though I have serious problems with the actions of the state of Israel, I would not involve myself in such.

Like brother Hershey referenced in the article, I suspect more of us have Jewish ancestors than anyone suspects. I likely do, but its exsistence was only whispered. The fact that it was even brought up shows the depth of depravity of the circles Unruh moved in.

I agree with everything written here, but I think the categorization of Mennonites among the worse offenders was based on the actions we took in WW2, not in the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Well, my building is about 1/3 Jewish, mostly Reform/Conservative. I casually brought up Mennonites and antisemitism in a group conversation. None of them knew that there even were Mennonites still in Europe during the pre/post WWII era. (I thought all of you came to America). All of them knew about some Mennonite groups being involved heavily in BDS (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) and similar movements. So my totally unscientific poll would suggest that the greatest factor just may be current efforts of some of the more liberal streams of the movement.

After careful consideration, I will suggest that the Mennonite movement has absolute limits. Just like Christianity has these limits (Jesus is not fully man/God, God does not exist, and the like) , the Mennonite movement has these limits as well. If you move beyond these boundaries, you are no longer Mennonite. I would consider Nonresistance/Pacificism to be one of these limits, maybe the fundamental limit. I can call myself a dog, but if I lack the fundamental characteristics of a dog, then I am not a dog. We need to completely avoid the "ethnic" identification and rest solely on a faith definition.

Benjamin Unruh was not a Mennonite. I don't care what he calls himself; he has left the absolute limits, and we should reject any claims that he still was one.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm sure people bleating constantly about how bad Trump is and how great Democrats are will do a great job of convincing them!

Who is doing that?

I’m simply exhibiting that nonstop TDS isn’t persuasive.

I have persuaded multiple people to abandon Republican politics and seek the kingdom of heaven instead.
I haven’t done so by endless forum posts about how bad Trump is.

So who do you see doing this? I sure have not seen such a thing, nothing that could even be 1/100 of my former church members.

[JohnH]

Who is doing that?

I’m simply exhibiting that nonstop TDS isn’t persuasive.

I have persuaded multiple people to abandon Republican politics and seek the kingdom of heaven instead.
I haven’t done so by endless forum posts about how bad Trump is.

So who do you see doing this? I sure have not seen such a thing, nothing that could even be 1/100 of my former church members.

I’m referring to this forum we’re on right now and the endless carping about Trump. All it does is make you look partisan and shuts off productive dialogue.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I’m simply exhibiting that nonstop TDS isn’t persuasive.

I have persuaded multiple people to abandon Republican politics and seek the kingdom of heaven instead.
I haven’t done so by endless forum posts about how bad Trump is.

So who do you see doing this? I sure have not seen such a thing, nothing that could even be 1/100 of my former church members.

I’m referring to this forum we’re on right now and the endless carping about Trump. All it does is make you look partisan and shuts off productive dialogue.

This was in the context of Old Order Amish. I doubt any Old Order Amish are browsing this forum. The "religious " content of the current adminstration is stunning and constant. Why would you want people to refrain from critiquing it? I would consider it very productive discussion.

[JohnH]

So who do you see doing this? I sure have not seen such a thing, nothing that could even be 1/100 of my former church members.

I’m referring to this forum we’re on right now and the endless carping about Trump. All it does is make you look partisan and shuts off productive dialogue.

This was in the context of Old Order Amish. I doubt any Old Order Amish are browsing this forum. The "religious " content of the current adminstration is stunning and constant. Why would you want people to refrain from critiquing it? I would consider it very productive discussion.

The people I have warned away from going down the evangelical “God and country” route are typically much less conservative than OO, although I have had some pretty in depth conversations with OO people as well.

What does not work is arguing “Orange man bad”.