Different views of Church and State...

General Christian Theology
JohnH
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by JohnH »

As a reminder, "megachurches" are typically evangelical and somewhat theologically conservative.

Mainline churches typically have much smaller attendance in the 25 - 100 person range.
The little Baptist churches can swing pretty wide in their church and state views though especially if the little church is located in an area that was historically abused by the government. The post-civil war abuses of the federal government still linger in the memories of folks especially up in the hollers. The Regulators and Carpet Baggers were pretty cruel to families who sided with the South.
Odd. East Tennessee typically fought for the Union, and in any case, that was 150 years ago.
Because of all that history there's folks who plain don't trust the federal government or even the state governments.
"I don't trust the government" is indeed a political position.
These little churches are more of a mind toward the member families instead of signing on to some big conference statement about the government coming from churches in other areas.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement. Smaller churches are far more likely to be in a large denomination, whereas churches with big memberships (like megachurches) are often independent.

In any case, Baptists, as a whole, feel quite comfortable participating in government, doing things ranging from voting to running for office to even being elected President, like Jimmy Carter.
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Jazman
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by Jazman »

Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2026 8:30 am
Jazman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2026 6:35 am Ernie, to help me stay/get back on thread, could you state what you're looking for, and maybe make it personal for me; what I could add to your original intent from my Lanc Menno C context/perspective? (What I believe or what I think my church context believes?)
Some subpoints under these categories could be helpful.

https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p301800
Thanks, I'm actually going to use your big list and barnhart's list...
Speaking for myself (and not my church) I'm like joshuabgood... I don't think I fit into just one box. I guess I'm still wrestling/seeking through the complexities and am also maybe too ecumenical/pluralistic (or wishy-washy as some might accuse). I see some strengths in some of them and some weaknesses in even ones that I gravitate towards. There's a few that I oppose completely, but others that I'm more open to, but not entirely...
But here's the conglomeration I lean towards; and no it's not consistent or figured out... these are the boxes I pull from the shelf and rummage through for things that seem to encourage human flourishing on earth, as God intended (based on sideline observation and the Teacher, Church History...)
And I've ranked these in order of what I lean towards the most; top = the most (And this represents me personally, not my church)

8. Separation of Church and State (Institutional Separation)
Core idea: Church and state are distinct institutions with no formal control over each other.
View of government: Neutral toward religion.
9. Free Church / Voluntaryism
Core idea: The church exists independently of state funding or control.
10. Anabaptist / Radical Separation (Nonparticipation)
Core idea: The church is a completely separate community from the world.
View of government: Christians often avoid political power or coercive roles. [that's good... but then sometimes this also is translated into avoiding much more than just 'power' or coercive roles... so I have caveats about this, my religious birthplace... and haunting questions...mostly provided by the counterarguments, the stories, and the prodding from the Liberation theology tradition... which is why I list it below. There's just too much there and with Biblical support as interpreted by marginalized groups like the Black church to ignore and write-off, as privileged groups like mine, tend to do/want to do...]

12. Liberation Theology / Transformational Views [with caveats... but yes I believe the Bible shows the people of God, OT and NT, doing some measure of this and therefore this is part of the gospel/resurrection calling for us presently]
Core idea: The church should actively influence political structures for justice.
Key belief: The gospel includes social and political liberation.

And from barnhart's simplifying... C. Two realm, co-equal authority (4. Catholic 2 swords, 5. Lutheran 2 kingdoms, 6. Reformed Calvinist, 7. Establishmentarianism)
[To an extent/with caveats... but I feel the upsides for the Church can be if subordinate to the civil authorities or staying or stuck in the 'spiritual/religious lane"...: encourages humility and encourages more focus on 'our own house' -- its own spiritual, moral/ethical discipleship rather than being busybodies in the matters of those outside the Church as #1 (Theocracy) and #3 (Constantinian) models would seem to encourage, which I think History clearly shows those approaches undermining the Church's witness and generally pushing people away from Christianity. This is what the american style christian nationalist/dominionist political/parachurch orgs are doing right now]

In closing...
I liked this by joshuabgood...
"however, the lever of the unitary authority isn't the "sword" but instead the way of the cross. The Kingdom is on earth, but it isn't worldly, that is a geopolitical state. In that sense, I really appreciate the hardcore reformed postmillenial perspective if you will, but a different mechanism/lever."
I too am drawn to the general frame (or cosmology?) of C. Two realm, co-equal authority... but not necessarily the execution of it, particularly as done in the past. If #4, #5 and #6 take up the 'way of the cross' as the lever, then I'm more open to it and maybe that is why I am now drawn somewhat to those high church spaces because in the present they have mostly/generally laid the state/church sword down or can't pick it up?
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A Confessing Church would acknowledge the inescapable realities of sin and injustice in every human institution, including every political party. It would wholeheartedly reject any suggestion that one party or movement is the party of God. Paul D Miller
JohnH
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by JohnH »

An important trait of liberation theology is that it is basically an invention of Communists and was funded by the USSR, particularly n Latin America. So it is effectively a state church.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by Bootstrap »

Another AI-generated overview from a different perspective ...

Schools of Thought on Church and State

The main questions are not just whether someone wants "separation" or "establishment," but:
  • Who has jurisdiction over what?
  • Should the state officially privilege a religion?
  • May the state coerce religious belief or practice?
  • Should Christians hold political office and use civil power?
  • Is the political order supposed to be merely peaceful, morally Christian, or explicitly confessional?
What follows is a map of the main schools of thought.

1. Sacral Unity: One Christian Commonwealth

This is the broad family of views that does not begin by separating church and state as independent spheres. It assumes that political society ought to be publicly Christian and that civil and ecclesial order should be integrated in some serious way.

This family includes several distinct models:

A. Theocratic or Confessional Rule

Core claim: Civil law should explicitly reflect divine law, not merely general moral principles.

In its strongest form, the state is expected to punish at least some public religious error, blasphemy, or false worship. In modern discussion this is often associated with small Reconstructionist or theonomic circles, but older Christian societies also assumed in practice that rulers had duties toward the true religion.

Strength: Takes seriously the claim that Christ's authority is public, not merely private.

Risk: Easily underestimates the difference between ancient Israel, the church, and modern political communities; also tends toward coercive overreach.

B. Medieval Papal or Hierocratic Supremacy

Core claim: Both church and civil authority come from God, but the spiritual power is higher than the temporal power.

This is the world of the medieval "two swords" debates. The point was not that popes should run daily civil administration, but that temporal rulers ultimately stood beneath spiritual judgment. Medieval papal claims could become very strong: kings rule in their sphere, but the church judges matters touching salvation, morals, and sometimes the legitimacy of rulers themselves.

Strength: Clearly distinguishes temporal and spiritual goods while refusing to reduce the church to a department of state.

Risk: Unstable in practice, because "indirect" spiritual superiority often becomes direct political intervention.

C. Orthodox Symphonia

Core claim: Church and empire are distinct but ideally harmonious, cooperating for the good of a Christian people.

Eastern Christian political theology historically preferred the language of cooperation rather than papal supremacy. The emperor was not a bishop, and the church was not merely a state agency, but the two were expected to work in concert. In practice this could drift toward heavy state domination of church life, especially in imperial or national settings.

Strength: Better at expressing mutual support than simple domination models.

Risk: The ideal of harmony often masks a real imbalance in favor of the state.

2. State Supremacy Over the Church

This family says the civil ruler has decisive authority over the church's public or institutional life within the realm.

A. Erastianism

Core claim: The state has final jurisdiction in significant church matters, especially governance, establishment, and public order.

The term is sometimes used too loosely. Properly speaking, it describes a view in which the church is not fully self-governing as a visible society. The magistrate may call synods, approve discipline, control appointments, or settle jurisdictional disputes.

Historical examples include aspects of post-Reformation territorial churches and certain phases of English and northern European establishment.

Strength: Produces political uniformity and institutional clarity.

Risk: Turns the church into an instrument of regime management.

B. Caesaro-papist Tendencies

Core claim: The ruler effectively governs the church, even if theology denies that he should.

This is less a clean theory than a recurring pattern. It appears whenever an emperor, king, or modern nation-state subordinates bishops, synods, or church structures to political objectives.

This matters because many traditions officially reject state control while having long periods in which the state functionally controls the church.

3. Magisterial Protestant Establishment

The magisterial Reformers rejected papal supremacy, but most of them did not advocate the modern free-church principle. They generally assumed that rulers had real duties toward religion and that a Christian society should be publicly ordered toward the truth.

That family divides into several important streams.

A. Lutheran Two Kingdoms

Core claim: God rules the world in two distinct ways.
  • Through the gospel, the church, and the ministry of Word and sacrament.
  • Through law, civil authority, and temporal institutions that restrain evil and preserve outward peace.
This is one major form of two-kingdoms theology, not the only one. Classical Lutheran thought does not mean that faith is private and politics is secular. It means that church and state have different divine tasks and should not be confused. The magistrate should preserve civil order; the church should not wield the sword.

Historical Lutheran lands were often established churches, so the doctrine did not automatically produce separation.

Strength: Strong protection against confusing salvation with politics.

Risk: Can slide into political quietism or excessive deference to the state.

B. Reformed Establishmentarianism

Core claim: Church and state are distinct governments under God, and magistrates have duties not only to civil peace but also, in some form, to the true religion.

Classical Reformed thought was usually more willing than Lutheran thought to say that rulers should positively uphold a godly moral order and support the church. In some versions, the magistrate suppresses public idolatry or blasphemy; in milder versions, the magistrate protects and privileges the church without directly ruling it.

This was the dominant outlook in much early Reformed and Presbyterian political theology.

Strength: Refuses the fiction of a morally neutral public order.

Risk: Differentiate too weakly between civil justice and ecclesial discipline, leading to coercive religion.

C. Anglican Establishment

Core claim: A national church may be legally established while remaining a true church with its own liturgy, ministry, and doctrine.

Anglicanism has housed several theories at once: royal supremacy, Erastian practice, episcopal self-understanding, and later liberal establishment. So "Anglican view" is not one thing. The common thread is that national religious establishment is not seen as inherently corrupting.

Strength: Historically strong at joining common worship, national identity, and institutional continuity.

Risk: Easily becomes dependent on the state and doctrinally diluted.

4. Free Church and Institutional Separation

This family rejects establishment and insists that the church must be free from state control and the state free from church rule.

This is the world that most people mean by "separation of church and state," but even here there are major differences.

A. Baptist and Free Church Voluntaryism

Core claim: Faith must be voluntary; therefore the state should not establish, fund, or coerce religion.

This is not necessarily a secularist claim. Historically, many Baptists defended religious liberty precisely because they thought coerced religion is false religion and that Christ alone is lord of the conscience.

The church is understood as a gathered body of believers, not a territorial population. That ecclesiology naturally opposes establishment.

Strength: Strong protection for conscience, conversion, and church independence.

Risk: In some forms, public Christianity is reduced to private association plus lobbying.

B. Liberal Separationism

Core claim: The state should remain institutionally and legally neutral among religions, and often among religions and non-religion.

This position shares some institutional conclusions with Free Church thought but rests on a different rationale. Its concern is not chiefly the purity of the church but the fairness of the state in a plural society.

This is the dominant grammar of modern constitutional democracies.

Strength: Protects pluralism and reduces sectarian coercion.

Risk: "Neutrality" often becomes a concealed substantive ideology rather than a genuinely even-handed framework.

5. Radical Church Separation from Political Power

This family goes beyond institutional separation and is skeptical of Christian participation in the coercive mechanisms of the state itself.

A. Anabaptist Nonconformity

Core claim: The church is a distinct community of discipleship whose life cannot be secured by the sword.

Many Anabaptist traditions therefore reject or sharply limit military service, oath-taking, coercive office, and close identification with state power. The kingdom of Christ is displayed through an alternative social body, not through control of the regime.

Some early Anabaptists also used two-kingdoms language, but with a different practical outcome from Luther's. In figures such as Sattler and Marpeck, the distinction between Christ's kingdom and worldly rule supported the church's separateness from coercive political power more strongly than it supported a Christian magistracy.

Even within early Anabaptism, the position is not uniform. Sattler draws especially sharp lines around the sword, oath, and magistracy; Blaurock is often remembered for a similarly uncompromising separationist edge; Menno Simons puts heavy weight on the disciplined, peaceable life of the visible church; Marpeck is often read as more open than the others to ordinary social and civic involvement while still refusing a coercive church-state synthesis.

This is not mere apathy. It is a positive theological judgment that the church's witness is corrupted when it tries to rule the world by force.

Strength: Powerful critique of coercive Christendom.

Risk: Can underplay the obligations of Christians toward broader public justice.

B. Sectarian Withdrawal vs Principled Nonviolence

It helps to distinguish two things often lumped together:
  • withdrawal from mainstream political life as a survival strategy or communal discipline;
  • principled rejection of coercion as incompatible with the way of Christ.
Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, and related traditions overlap here, but not always in identical ways.

6. Principled Pluralism and Sphere Distinction

This family argues that church and state are distinct because society itself contains multiple kinds of authority, not just one sovereign institution.

Neo-Calvinist Sphere Sovereignty

Core claim: God has ordained distinct spheres of life, such as church, state, family, school, and commerce, each with its own competence.

Associated with Abraham Kuyper and later neo-Calvinist thought, this view opposes both ecclesiastical domination of the state and statist domination of the church. The state has a real but limited task: public justice. It should neither run the church nor pretend all institutions are private hobbies.

This is one of the most important alternatives to both old establishment and modern secular neutrality.

Strength: Offers a strong account of institutional pluralism without reducing religion to the private sphere.

Risk: In practice, it depends on a constitutional culture that actually honors those limits.

7. Roman Catholic Development: From Christendom to Religious Liberty

Roman Catholic teaching is especially important because it contains major historical development.

Earlier Catholic Political Theology

Earlier Catholic thought usually assumed that political society should publicly honor the true religion and that error has no positive right to public propagation in the same way truth does. This did not always mean maximal coercion, but it did mean the modern neutral state was treated with deep suspicion.

Modern Catholic Teaching After Vatican II

Modern Catholic teaching, especially in Dignitatis Humanae, strongly affirms religious freedom as an immunity from coercion in civil society. The state should not force religious belief or prevent religious exercise within just limits.

This does not simply collapse Catholic thought into liberal privatization. The church still claims authority to teach public moral truth and to judge political life morally. But it no longer treats confessional establishment as the necessary norm in the way many earlier Catholic writers did.

Strength: Better account of conscience and plural societies without surrendering the church's public voice.

Risk: Tension remains between older confessional assumptions and newer liberty language, which is why Catholic debates about "integralism" continue.

8. Contemporary Post-Liberal and Integralist Views

These positions argue that liberal separationism is unstable because every political order rests on some substantive vision of the good.

A. Catholic Integralism

Core claim: Political authority should be ordered toward man's highest good, and therefore temporal authority should not be understood as religiously self-sufficient.

Contemporary integralists often revive older Catholic themes while debating how, or whether, they could apply under modern conditions. They are usually more sophisticated than simple calls for clerical rule, but they plainly reject the idea of a religiously neutral state.

Strength: Exposes the myth that liberalism is worldview-free.

Risk: Often unclear about workable institutional form in a non-confessional society.

B. Protestant Christian Nationalism

Core claim: The nation should explicitly affirm Christian identity, memory, or moral norms.

This is often rhetorically broad and intellectually uneven. Sometimes it means little more than cultural conservatism plus symbolic preference for Christianity; sometimes it means a genuine argument for confessional politics; sometimes it is an ethnic or civilizational project wearing Christian language.

It should be distinguished from older imperial Christendom. Constantine is often treated as a precursor because he used civil power to privilege Christianity, but he was an emperor in a Christianizing empire, not a nationalist in the modern sense.

For that reason, "Christian nationalism" is usually better treated as a contested modern political movement than as a single coherent school of theology.

Strength: Recognizes that nations are shaped by moral and religious inheritance.

Risk: Easily fuses Christianity with ethnicity, party interest, or mythologized national identity.

9. Liberationist and Activist Approaches

These approaches are less about jurisdictional theory and more about what the church must do in the face of injustice.

Prophetic Witness

Core claim: The church bears public witness to God's judgment and reign, sometimes by its corporate life as an alternative community and sometimes by speaking directly to rulers, laws, and social practices, without therefore trying to become the state or withdraw from public life.

This mode appears across multiple traditions. It is not identical with establishment, partisan activism, or revolutionary politics. The church may function as witness through visible holiness, mercy, solidarity, and truthful communal life, or through rebuke, summons, and conscience: praising justice where it appears, condemning oppression where it appears, and reminding political authorities that they are not ultimate.

This outlook is often associated with biblical prophetic themes, strands of the Black church tradition, parts of Barthian theology, civil-rights preaching, and other forms of public Christian moral critique.

Strength: Preserves the church's public voice without requiring direct control of civil power.

Risk: Easily collapses into party alignment, vague moralism, or selective outrage unless the witness remains theologically grounded.

Liberation Theology and Related Activisms

Core claim: The gospel has unavoidable social and political implications, especially for the poor, oppressed, and excluded.

This family does not necessarily yield one church-state model. Some liberationist thinkers work within democratic pluralism; others speak in more revolutionary categories. The central point is that a church that refuses structural political questions has already sided with the status quo.

It is important not to collapse liberation theology into every biblical concern for justice. Scripture is full of concern for the poor, the widow, the stranger, unjust rulers, dishonest scales, and the abuse of power. Liberation theology becomes a more specific and controversial project when those themes are organized through external ideological frameworks, often including Marxist social analysis. The key dispute is not whether the Bible speaks about justice, but whether Scripture governs the analysis and conclusions, or whether a prior political theory effectively governs the reading of Scripture.

Strength: Strong sensitivity to the political dimensions of injustice.

Risk: The church's mission can be collapsed into a program of social transformation defined by contested political theories, so that biblical teaching is selectively retained where it supports the framework and overridden where it does not.

10. Short Taxonomy

If you need a shorter list, here is a compact taxonomy:
  1. Sacral or confessional unity: church and political order should be publicly integrated.
  2. Church-superior models: state is legitimate but finally subordinate to spiritual authority in matters touching the highest good.
  3. State-superior models: ruler or state has decisive authority over church institutions.
  4. Magisterial Protestant establishment: distinct church and magistrate, but both ordered to a publicly Christian society.
  5. Free church separation: no establishment, no coercion, church as voluntary community.
  6. Anabaptist separation from coercive power: church as alternative polity, deep suspicion of political force.
  7. Pluralist sphere distinction: multiple God-given institutions, none absorbing the others.
  8. Modern liberal separationism: state neutrality in a religiously diverse society.
  9. Post-liberal or integralist critiques: neutrality is impossible; politics must acknowledge a substantive moral order.
  10. Prophetic witness: the church bears public witness by embodied example, direct moral address, or both, without necessarily seeking control of political power.
  11. Liberationist activism: whatever the formal arrangement, the church must confront unjust structures.
11. What People Commonly Confuse
  • Establishment is not the same thing as theocracy. A state church can exist without clergy directly ruling the state.
  • Institutional separation is not the same thing as secularism. Many Free Church traditions defend separation for theological reasons.
  • Two kingdoms is not just one doctrine. Lutheran and Anabaptist versions use similar language but reach importantly different conclusions about coercion, office, and the relation of the church to civil rule.
  • Augustine's Two Cities is not the same as later two-kingdoms theologies. The Two Cities names two loves and two ultimate allegiances running through history; later two-kingdoms models more often describe distinct modes or spheres of divine rule.
  • Prophetic witness is not the same thing as establishment. A church may address the state forcefully without wanting to rule it.
  • Symphonia is not the same as papal supremacy.
  • Christian nationalism is not a historic theological tradition in the same way as Lutheran, Reformed, Catholic, or Anabaptist political theology.
  • Biblical justice language is not the same thing as liberation theology. Concern for the poor and condemnation of injustice are deeply biblical; the real question is what framework governs their interpretation and application.
  • Religious liberty can be defended from very different starting points: Baptist voluntarism, liberal neutrality, Catholic personalism, or pluralist institutional theory.
12. Bottom Line

The central divide is not simply between "church controls state" and "state controls church." A more accurate overview asks:
  • Is political society supposed to be publicly ordered to Christianity?
  • Are church and state distinct because they have different tasks, or because faith must never be coerced, or because society contains many legitimate spheres?
  • Should Christians use coercive power to uphold true religion, only to preserve civil peace, or not at all?
Different traditions answer those questions differently, and that is what produces the real schools of thought.

Across these debates, one major danger recurs: the Kingdom of God can be treated as vapor, inwardness, or distant hope, while politics becomes the sphere where the real action supposedly happens. Once that inversion takes hold, the church is tempted either to baptize political programs as the substance of its mission or to surrender its own distinctive life as secondary. Any adequate account of church and state has to keep the priority of God's reign clear, even when Christians sharply disagree about what that requires politically.
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by JohnH »

I have my own AI chat bot account if I want to get an AI’s perspective on things. Can you post things in your own words and perspective instead?
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Ernie
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by Ernie »

Jazman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 12:10 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2026 8:30 am
Jazman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2026 6:35 am Ernie, to help me stay/get back on thread, could you state what you're looking for, and maybe make it personal for me; what I could add to your original intent from my Lanc Menno C context/perspective? (What I believe or what I think my church context believes?)
Some subpoints under these categories could be helpful.

https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p301800
Thanks, I'm actually going to use your big list and barnhart's list...
Speaking for myself (and not my church) I'm like joshuabgood... I don't think I fit into just one box. I guess I'm still wrestling/seeking through the complexities and am also maybe too ecumenical/pluralistic (or wishy-washy as some might accuse). I see some strengths in some of them and some weaknesses in even ones that I gravitate towards. There's a few that I oppose completely, but others that I'm more open to, but not entirely...
But here's the conglomeration I lean towards; and no it's not consistent or figured out... these are the boxes I pull from the shelf and rummage through for things that seem to encourage human flourishing on earth, as God intended (based on sideline observation and the Teacher, Church History...)
And I've ranked these in order of what I lean towards the most; top = the most (And this represents me personally, not my church)

8. Separation of Church and State (Institutional Separation)
Core idea: Church and state are distinct institutions with no formal control over each other.
View of government: Neutral toward religion.
9. Free Church / Voluntaryism
Core idea: The church exists independently of state funding or control.
10. Anabaptist / Radical Separation (Nonparticipation)
Core idea: The church is a completely separate community from the world.
View of government: Christians often avoid political power or coercive roles. [that's good... but then sometimes this also is translated into avoiding much more than just 'power' or coercive roles... so I have caveats about this, my religious birthplace... and haunting questions...mostly provided by the counterarguments, the stories, and the prodding from the Liberation theology tradition... which is why I list it below. There's just too much there and with Biblical support as interpreted by marginalized groups like the Black church to ignore and write-off, as privileged groups like mine, tend to do/want to do...]

12. Liberation Theology / Transformational Views [with caveats... but yes I believe the Bible shows the people of God, OT and NT, doing some measure of this and therefore this is part of the gospel/resurrection calling for us presently]
Core idea: The church should actively influence political structures for justice.
Key belief: The gospel includes social and political liberation.

And from barnhart's simplifying... C. Two realm, co-equal authority (4. Catholic 2 swords, 5. Lutheran 2 kingdoms, 6. Reformed Calvinist, 7. Establishmentarianism)
[To an extent/with caveats... but I feel the upsides for the Church can be if subordinate to the civil authorities or staying or stuck in the 'spiritual/religious lane"...: encourages humility and encourages more focus on 'our own house' -- its own spiritual, moral/ethical discipleship rather than being busybodies in the matters of those outside the Church as #1 (Theocracy) and #3 (Constantinian) models would seem to encourage, which I think History clearly shows those approaches undermining the Church's witness and generally pushing people away from Christianity. This is what the american style christian nationalist/dominionist political/parachurch orgs are doing right now]

In closing...
I liked this by joshuabgood...
"however, the lever of the unitary authority isn't the "sword" but instead the way of the cross. The Kingdom is on earth, but it isn't worldly, that is a geopolitical state. In that sense, I really appreciate the hardcore reformed postmillenial perspective if you will, but a different mechanism/lever."
I too am drawn to the general frame (or cosmology?) of C. Two realm, co-equal authority... but not necessarily the execution of it, particularly as done in the past. If #4, #5 and #6 take up the 'way of the cross' as the lever, then I'm more open to it and maybe that is why I am now drawn somewhat to those high church spaces because in the present they have mostly/generally laid the state/church sword down or can't pick it up?
Thanks. Now if someone could put this into a nice outline, I would be grateful.
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Anthony
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Re: Different views of Church and State...

Post by Anthony »

Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 9:40 pm
Jazman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 12:10 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2026 8:30 am

Some subpoints under these categories could be helpful.

https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p301800
Thanks, I'm actually going to use your big list and barnhart's list...
Speaking for myself (and not my church) I'm like joshuabgood... I don't think I fit into just one box. I guess I'm still wrestling/seeking through the complexities and am also maybe too ecumenical/pluralistic (or wishy-washy as some might accuse). I see some strengths in some of them and some weaknesses in even ones that I gravitate towards. There's a few that I oppose completely, but others that I'm more open to, but not entirely...
But here's the conglomeration I lean towards; and no it's not consistent or figured out... these are the boxes I pull from the shelf and rummage through for things that seem to encourage human flourishing on earth, as God intended (based on sideline observation and the Teacher, Church History...)
And I've ranked these in order of what I lean towards the most; top = the most (And this represents me personally, not my church)

8. Separation of Church and State (Institutional Separation)
Core idea: Church and state are distinct institutions with no formal control over each other.
View of government: Neutral toward religion.
9. Free Church / Voluntaryism
Core idea: The church exists independently of state funding or control.
10. Anabaptist / Radical Separation (Nonparticipation)
Core idea: The church is a completely separate community from the world.
View of government: Christians often avoid political power or coercive roles. [that's good... but then sometimes this also is translated into avoiding much more than just 'power' or coercive roles... so I have caveats about this, my religious birthplace... and haunting questions...mostly provided by the counterarguments, the stories, and the prodding from the Liberation theology tradition... which is why I list it below. There's just too much there and with Biblical support as interpreted by marginalized groups like the Black church to ignore and write-off, as privileged groups like mine, tend to do/want to do...]

12. Liberation Theology / Transformational Views [with caveats... but yes I believe the Bible shows the people of God, OT and NT, doing some measure of this and therefore this is part of the gospel/resurrection calling for us presently]
Core idea: The church should actively influence political structures for justice.
Key belief: The gospel includes social and political liberation.

And from barnhart's simplifying... C. Two realm, co-equal authority (4. Catholic 2 swords, 5. Lutheran 2 kingdoms, 6. Reformed Calvinist, 7. Establishmentarianism)
[To an extent/with caveats... but I feel the upsides for the Church can be if subordinate to the civil authorities or staying or stuck in the 'spiritual/religious lane"...: encourages humility and encourages more focus on 'our own house' -- its own spiritual, moral/ethical discipleship rather than being busybodies in the matters of those outside the Church as #1 (Theocracy) and #3 (Constantinian) models would seem to encourage, which I think History clearly shows those approaches undermining the Church's witness and generally pushing people away from Christianity. This is what the american style christian nationalist/dominionist political/parachurch orgs are doing right now]

In closing...
I liked this by joshuabgood...
"however, the lever of the unitary authority isn't the "sword" but instead the way of the cross. The Kingdom is on earth, but it isn't worldly, that is a geopolitical state. In that sense, I really appreciate the hardcore reformed postmillenial perspective if you will, but a different mechanism/lever."
I too am drawn to the general frame (or cosmology?) of C. Two realm, co-equal authority... but not necessarily the execution of it, particularly as done in the past. If #4, #5 and #6 take up the 'way of the cross' as the lever, then I'm more open to it and maybe that is why I am now drawn somewhat to those high church spaces because in the present they have mostly/generally laid the state/church sword down or can't pick it up?
Thanks. Now if someone could put this into a nice outline, I would be grateful.
Here’s a tight, simplified version of your whole framework:

⸻

The Big Question

All views differ based on a few core issues:
• Should society be publicly Christian or neutral?
• Should the state enforce religion, support it, or stay out?
• Should Christians use political power or not?

⸻

The 5 Main Buckets

1. Integrated (Church + State Together)
• Society should be explicitly Christian
• Church and state cooperate or overlap
• Ranges from:
• Strong (punish heresy)
• Moderate (church higher than state)
• Cooperative (church + state work together)

👉 Risk: coercion or power struggles

⸻

2. State Over Church
• Government has final say over religion
• Church becomes partly a tool of the state

👉 Risk: religion gets politicized or controlled

⸻

3. Christian Society, But Distinct Roles (Magisterial Protestant)
• Church and state are separate but both Christian
• State:
• Maintains order
• Sometimes supports true religion
• Church:
• Handles salvation and teaching

👉 Middle ground between unity and separation
👉 Risk: blurry line → coercion or confusion

⸻

4. Separation (Free Church / Liberal)
• No official religion
• Faith must be voluntary
• State stays neutral

Two versions:
• Religious (Baptist): protect true faith from coercion
• Secular (liberal): fairness in a plural society

👉 Risk: religion becomes private or weakened publicly

⸻

5. Radical Separation (Anabaptist)
• Church should not use state power at all
• Christians often avoid:
• Violence
• Political authority
• Church = alternative community

👉 Strength: avoids coercion
👉 Risk: disengagement from public justice

⸻

Extra Important Modern Ideas

• Pluralism / Sphere Sovereignty
• Society has multiple independent spheres (church, state, family, etc.)
• State’s job = justice, not religion

⸻

• Post-Liberal / Integralist
• Reject “neutral state”
• Say all politics is based on some moral/religious vision

⸻

• Prophetic / Activist
• Church doesn’t rule the state but speaks to it
• Focus on:
• Justice
• Morality
• Public witness

One Sentence Summary

The spectrum runs from “Christian state enforcing religion” → “neutral state with free religion” → “church completely separate from political power.”
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