In some ways it seems the Conservative Movement is an attempt to run backwards on the escalator or to step off it (though you'll still have people jumping from one escalator to another). Ultra-conservatives especially have been fairly successful at freezing culture at the point of departure from the mainstream. However, it's not a return to the Old Order, but retaining or regaining essential fundamentalist theology that's in view. Trading in 1970 for 1920, but not 1870. Especially in terms of soteriology, Bercot is clear that he doesn't consider that Anabaptist. That angle might be worth a thread of its own.Mrs.Nisly wrote:It sounds like Conservative Mennonites are basically doomed to the escalator over the next how many generations.
Is it possible to retain or regain the essential Anabaptist theology without returning to the Old Order?
Where Did They Go?
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ohio jones
Re: Where Did They Go?
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Ernie
Re: Where Did They Go?
Where did they go? I've gone into hibernation.lesterb wrote:Maybe this will be the "killer" discussion that starts to bring people back.
I would love to be part of this discussion but don't plan to be an active participant on MN.
I had decided earlier in the fall that my MD time is coming to a close and I was in the process of curtailing my time on MD due to other goals and responsibilities. My tenth anniversary would have been in December and I planned to go into hibernation at that point. With the collapse of MD, I've decided to speed that up that time table.
I will be reading threads like this with interest as I have time.
Anyone is free to PM me or send me an email at anytime if you want me to read something or dialogue about something.
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Wayne in Maine
Re: Where Did They Go?
In the end that depends on what you mean by "Old Order". I think a lot of Protestant adaptions have to go to regain an Anabaptist identity, but the Old Orders themselves evolved and adopted a lot of ideas and practices unfamiliar and even rejected by the early Anabaptists.Mrs.Nisly wrote:It sounds like Conservative Mennonites are basically doomed to the escalator over the next how many generations.
Is it possible to retain or regain the essential Anabaptist theology without returning to the Old Order?
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Wayne in Maine
Re: Where Did They Go?
Which means that if we want to be "Anabaptists" we have to be willing to shed our children and make disciples of all nations.Josh wrote:Are you actually asking if we can get our children off the escalator? We can retain essential Anabaptist theology easily.Mrs.Nisly wrote:It sounds like Conservative Mennonites are basically doomed to the escalator over the next how many generations.
Is it possible to retain or regain the essential Anabaptist theology without returning to the Old Order?
The problem is that our children don't. Whatever we are teaching them, they seem to be most comfortable in a "conservative", evangelical church and are very comfortable shedding nonresistance.
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Wade
Re: Where Did They Go?
Shed our children?
I agree. But yet disagree - I believe it is a paradox.
I know it got redirected but I believe a key to seeing this issue has to do with birth control and why it is used.
Anabaptist using birth control have already shed their potential children! - but what for? And what "escalator" have they jumped onto?
In grade 10 social studies class in public school Mr. Campbell the vice principal repeated over and over with a condemning tone, "poverty breeds." "Poverty breeds," it is one of those things that was said so forcefully that it really stuck with me. Even with not become a Christian over a decade later it stuck in my subconscious and was always there nagging at me. But why did this matter? "Poverty Breeds?....!"
It was nothing to my parents to call me and my sister "accidents," openly. Many times I heard them say that if they would have a third "kid," they would have named it "Oops!" (I do believe they are grateful for us.)
Continually we are told to stop having "kids," and sometimes boldly by people we hardly know...(We aren't having goats - if anything we would like to have "little sheep or lambs.") I am told very often that their is a "fix" for our problem. A vasectomy means you are broken and not fixed at all - I tell them...
I could go on and on at the things said, gestured, and done but I have already said too much...
Mr. Campbell was wrong is what I say and I have come to find through all the worldly influences we have been around that it is in fact wealth that helps encourage selfishness. And selfishness says I want this and I want that and children hinder me from doing what I want...
Maybe Mr. Campbell was right if we want to say that, "the poor in spirit breed."
We don't breed because of a goal to have many children, we don't breed because that is the Anabaptist thing to do, we don't breed to keep the church going and growing and we don't breed because we are stricken with poverty. In my opinion - God's children breed because they love and the thought of hindering giving life because of any means not directly related to a major health concern is purely selfish... But yet Christ died (a major health concern) so that we could be born!
It is related to the wealth of Christian's and the infection of selfishness that typical comes along with it has just moved in slowly over the years and therefore for the most part undetected... But for us - we left the world and have no desire to go to a church that puts us right back in it.
To even shed our children and make disciples of all nations - first we need to have faith in letting God direct us in having them... And that takes viewing them like God does - as a blessing and gift - not a hindrance. Yes, when we have a lot of children - they are work and yes it is taxing and yes we are ridiculed and yes we go without things that others have and etc. But isn't that what we are told in scripture that the Christian life is like? Preaching of the cross...
Rejection of God's blessings is repulsive and worldly - I would think any Christian would agree with that...
With every blessing comes responsibility and His grace is sufficient to see us through but unfortunately our humanity is saying we want the blessings from God - of course, but our flesh is saying but we don't want the responsibility...
Wealth and ease says I reject the blessing because I have in fact rejected the responsibility and therefore I am going to fill that void with something carnal.
The only way off the escalator is to be spiritually minded... I need help in this but I will not look for help to the wealthy in this world and neither will other people coming from it that our looking to follow Christ.
Last night when me and my two sons washed the dishes(a man's job in our home) - I was slightly annoyed that my two year old had to pull up a chair right close to me and ask for his scrubber to help when he kept dumping water all over. That dripping of water onto my sock just isn't a nice feeling and the dishes went slower as well. But oh Lord help me to see these precious ones like you see them. I am so grateful my two year old would rather stand beside me bumping elbows doing choirs and mostly making more of a mess than he is helping, with my ten year old on my other side excited he gets time with dad, than them playing with toys or worse yet - never having been born. And to think that Hindu doctor came out with our two year old(the day he was born) with the excitement of an old buddy praising God that He had cared for my family and that it is to His credit that my wife and the baby survived. Praise God for His love and blessings and each responsibility that comes with them.
I agree. But yet disagree - I believe it is a paradox.
I know it got redirected but I believe a key to seeing this issue has to do with birth control and why it is used.
Anabaptist using birth control have already shed their potential children! - but what for? And what "escalator" have they jumped onto?
In grade 10 social studies class in public school Mr. Campbell the vice principal repeated over and over with a condemning tone, "poverty breeds." "Poverty breeds," it is one of those things that was said so forcefully that it really stuck with me. Even with not become a Christian over a decade later it stuck in my subconscious and was always there nagging at me. But why did this matter? "Poverty Breeds?....!"
It was nothing to my parents to call me and my sister "accidents," openly. Many times I heard them say that if they would have a third "kid," they would have named it "Oops!" (I do believe they are grateful for us.)
Continually we are told to stop having "kids," and sometimes boldly by people we hardly know...(We aren't having goats - if anything we would like to have "little sheep or lambs.") I am told very often that their is a "fix" for our problem. A vasectomy means you are broken and not fixed at all - I tell them...
I could go on and on at the things said, gestured, and done but I have already said too much...
Mr. Campbell was wrong is what I say and I have come to find through all the worldly influences we have been around that it is in fact wealth that helps encourage selfishness. And selfishness says I want this and I want that and children hinder me from doing what I want...
Maybe Mr. Campbell was right if we want to say that, "the poor in spirit breed."
We don't breed because of a goal to have many children, we don't breed because that is the Anabaptist thing to do, we don't breed to keep the church going and growing and we don't breed because we are stricken with poverty. In my opinion - God's children breed because they love and the thought of hindering giving life because of any means not directly related to a major health concern is purely selfish... But yet Christ died (a major health concern) so that we could be born!
It is related to the wealth of Christian's and the infection of selfishness that typical comes along with it has just moved in slowly over the years and therefore for the most part undetected... But for us - we left the world and have no desire to go to a church that puts us right back in it.
To even shed our children and make disciples of all nations - first we need to have faith in letting God direct us in having them... And that takes viewing them like God does - as a blessing and gift - not a hindrance. Yes, when we have a lot of children - they are work and yes it is taxing and yes we are ridiculed and yes we go without things that others have and etc. But isn't that what we are told in scripture that the Christian life is like? Preaching of the cross...
Rejection of God's blessings is repulsive and worldly - I would think any Christian would agree with that...
With every blessing comes responsibility and His grace is sufficient to see us through but unfortunately our humanity is saying we want the blessings from God - of course, but our flesh is saying but we don't want the responsibility...
Wealth and ease says I reject the blessing because I have in fact rejected the responsibility and therefore I am going to fill that void with something carnal.
The only way off the escalator is to be spiritually minded... I need help in this but I will not look for help to the wealthy in this world and neither will other people coming from it that our looking to follow Christ.
Last night when me and my two sons washed the dishes(a man's job in our home) - I was slightly annoyed that my two year old had to pull up a chair right close to me and ask for his scrubber to help when he kept dumping water all over. That dripping of water onto my sock just isn't a nice feeling and the dishes went slower as well. But oh Lord help me to see these precious ones like you see them. I am so grateful my two year old would rather stand beside me bumping elbows doing choirs and mostly making more of a mess than he is helping, with my ten year old on my other side excited he gets time with dad, than them playing with toys or worse yet - never having been born. And to think that Hindu doctor came out with our two year old(the day he was born) with the excitement of an old buddy praising God that He had cared for my family and that it is to His credit that my wife and the baby survived. Praise God for His love and blessings and each responsibility that comes with them.
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EdselB
Re: Where Did They Go?
I have compiled the following set of membership statistics for Amish and Mennonites in North America (USA & Canada) which might be helpful for discussing "Where did they go?"
These numbers are drawn from the Mennonite Church Directory (CLP: 2015), Mennonite World Conference Directory 2015, GAMEO, data that I collected in 2015 on the Old Order Mennonites, and Mennonite World Review. The Amish membership is an estimate based on 45 % of the total estimated Amish population of baptized members and unbaptized children as per the Young Center's "Amish Population Profile 2016." Also I have kicked out of the membership numbers from the Mennonite Church Directory, of 2,180 Conservative Mennonites and 1,907 Amish-Mennonites who are not in the USA or Canada.
Plain Swiss Brethren Background Amish/Mennonites
Conservative Mennonites 28,931
Biblical Mennonite Alliance 3,545
Amish-Mennonites 14,862
Old Order Mennonites (horse & buggy) 18,083
Old Order Mennonites (car) 10,991
Reformed Mennonites 300
Amish 138,000
Total 214,712
Traditional Russian Mennonites
Old Colony 25,910
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite 21,150
Kleine Gemeinde 974
Sommerfeld 2,300
Reinlander 7,474
Total 57,808
Total Traditional 272,520
Assimilated Mennonites (Swiss/Russian)
MCUSA 78,892
MC Canada 32,000
Anabaptist Mennonite Networks and Churches 4,774
Total 115,666
Assimilated Mennonites (Swiss)
Conservative Mennonite Conference 12,474
Lancaster Mennonite Conference 13,838
Good News Fellowship of Anabaptist/Mennonite Churches 3,065
Harvest Fellowship 783
Alliance of Evangelical Mennonite Congregations 1,982
Franklin Mennonite Conference 1,000
Total 33,142
Assimilated Russian Mennonites
Active Mission Conference 400
Bergthaler Mennonite Church 870
Bergathaler Mennonites 1,820
Evangelical Mennonite Conference 6,400
Evangelical Mennonite Missions Conference 4,500
Fellowship Evangelical Bible Churches 2,970
Mennonite Brethren 72,311
Total 89,271
Total Assimilated 238,079
Total North-American (USA & Canada) 510,599
These numbers are drawn from the Mennonite Church Directory (CLP: 2015), Mennonite World Conference Directory 2015, GAMEO, data that I collected in 2015 on the Old Order Mennonites, and Mennonite World Review. The Amish membership is an estimate based on 45 % of the total estimated Amish population of baptized members and unbaptized children as per the Young Center's "Amish Population Profile 2016." Also I have kicked out of the membership numbers from the Mennonite Church Directory, of 2,180 Conservative Mennonites and 1,907 Amish-Mennonites who are not in the USA or Canada.
Plain Swiss Brethren Background Amish/Mennonites
Conservative Mennonites 28,931
Biblical Mennonite Alliance 3,545
Amish-Mennonites 14,862
Old Order Mennonites (horse & buggy) 18,083
Old Order Mennonites (car) 10,991
Reformed Mennonites 300
Amish 138,000
Total 214,712
Traditional Russian Mennonites
Old Colony 25,910
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite 21,150
Kleine Gemeinde 974
Sommerfeld 2,300
Reinlander 7,474
Total 57,808
Total Traditional 272,520
Assimilated Mennonites (Swiss/Russian)
MCUSA 78,892
MC Canada 32,000
Anabaptist Mennonite Networks and Churches 4,774
Total 115,666
Assimilated Mennonites (Swiss)
Conservative Mennonite Conference 12,474
Lancaster Mennonite Conference 13,838
Good News Fellowship of Anabaptist/Mennonite Churches 3,065
Harvest Fellowship 783
Alliance of Evangelical Mennonite Congregations 1,982
Franklin Mennonite Conference 1,000
Total 33,142
Assimilated Russian Mennonites
Active Mission Conference 400
Bergthaler Mennonite Church 870
Bergathaler Mennonites 1,820
Evangelical Mennonite Conference 6,400
Evangelical Mennonite Missions Conference 4,500
Fellowship Evangelical Bible Churches 2,970
Mennonite Brethren 72,311
Total 89,271
Total Assimilated 238,079
Total North-American (USA & Canada) 510,599
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lesterb
Re: Where Did They Go?
I'm a bit baffled Josh. You constantly refer to "facts" about Mennonites that seem strange to me. Do we just belong to different circles? Or am I just naive?Josh wrote:Are you actually asking if we can get our children off the escalator? We can retain essential Anabaptist theology easily.Mrs.Nisly wrote:It sounds like Conservative Mennonites are basically doomed to the escalator over the next how many generations.
Is it possible to retain or regain the essential Anabaptist theology without returning to the Old Order?
The problem is that our children don't. Whatever we are teaching them, they seem to be most comfortable in a "conservative", evangelical church and are very comfortable shedding nonresistance.
If our children are really sliding out into the world that easily and that predictably, then I don't think the problem is totally theirs. It's just as much a problem with parents and church teachers.
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Josh
Re: Where Did They Go?
Do you plan to participate anywhere else?Ernie wrote:Where did they go? I've gone into hibernation.lesterb wrote:Maybe this will be the "killer" discussion that starts to bring people back.
I would love to be part of this discussion but don't plan to be an active participant on MN.
I had decided earlier in the fall that my MD time is coming to a close and I was in the process of curtailing my time on MD due to other goals and responsibilities. My tenth anniversary would have been in December and I planned to go into hibernation at that point. With the collapse of MD, I've decided to speed that up that time table.
I will be reading threads like this with interest as I have time.
Anyone is free to PM me or send me an email at anytime if you want me to read something or dialogue about something.
Did you ever get anyone to take over the "church finder" service?
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Josh
Re: Where Did They Go?
We do belong to different circles. In the circles I am in, about half of young people don't stay, but almost all end up becoming part of an evangelical type of church that is not plain.lesterb wrote:I'm a bit baffled Josh. You constantly refer to "facts" about Mennonites that seem strange to me. Do we just belong to different circles? Or am I just naive?
If our children are really sliding out into the world that easily and that predictably, then I don't think the problem is totally theirs. It's just as much a problem with parents and church teachers.
I felt better about this once I read in some paper somewhere that moderate-conservative churches retain about 54% of their young people. (I wish I had kept that reference, because I can't find it now.)
I agree the problem isn't with the young people - something has gone wrong with the instruction and leadership. I'm not sure what to do about it though.
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Josh
Re: Where Did They Go?
The topic of conversation is the children of plain/conservative Anabaptists who don't join our churches and instead abandon plain/conservative Anabaptism altogether.Wade wrote:Shed our children?
I agree. But yet disagree - I believe it is a paradox.
I know it got redirected but I believe a key to seeing this issue has to do with birth control and why it is used.
Anabaptist using birth control have already shed their potential children! - but what for? And what "escalator" have they jumped onto?
Having large families won't fix that. I can think of a large family where every child has left the church.
I can also think of a large family that has used birth control, every child has (so far) stayed in church. At nearly a dozen kids with a mother with health issues, especially if she had any more - I don't see how we can say they made a bad decision.
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