Benjamin Unruh

[Szdfan]

History is written by the victors, and the general belief system that anyone associated with the Third Reich is next door to Satan himself is a more of a post-war phenomenon (such as, for example, the level of obsession in this thread).

Spike Jones and Donald Duck would disagree with that thesis.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The US intelligence apparatus had to know about this guy. Why did they not warn MCC, even through back channels, not to associate with this person?

US intelligence efforts were much less extensive before WW2 than afterward, so it wouldn't surprise me if Unruh was entirely unknown to the US government before the war.

I came to this with that idea in mind. However on page 181 of the Neufield-Fast article, I read the following?

"By 1944 Bender commiserated with Orie O. Miller, MCC executive
secretary, “how all of us were greatly disturbed that we should be
retaining Unruh on our payroll while he was openly agitating against
nonresistance. Our failure to repudiate Unruh resulted in a magnification
of his influence.”116 Shortly thereafter, MCC chair P. C. Hiebert conceded
“that Brother B. H. Unruh wholeheartedly supported the Nazi
movement,” and if MCC “erred anywhere it was in letting some support
get to him when we already knew how he stood.”117 This concern came to
head that summer when Orie Miller was interrogated by American federal
investigators who were concerned about the pro-Nazi sentiments in the
Mennonite colony in Paraguay and mentioned Unruh by name. Miller
told the investigators"

So the intelligence people knew something, for sure. Now I knew several "terrorists" socially when I lived in Jordan. One of them was the uncle of one of my teachers. I never got called in, or for that matter, asked about it. So by 1944, they should have known about it.

[Szdfan]

The US intelligence apparatus had to know about this guy. Why did they not warn MCC, even through back channels, not to associate with this person?

US intelligence efforts were much less extensive before WW2 than afterward, so it wouldn't surprise me if Unruh was entirely unknown to the US government before the war.

I came to this with that idea in mind. However on page 181 of the Neufield-Fast article, I read the following?

"By 1944 Bender commiserated with Orie O. Miller, MCC executive
secretary, “how all of us were greatly disturbed that we should be
retaining Unruh on our payroll while he was openly agitating against
nonresistance. Our failure to repudiate Unruh resulted in a magnification
of his influence.”116 Shortly thereafter, MCC chair P. C. Hiebert conceded
“that Brother B. H. Unruh wholeheartedly supported the Nazi
movement,” and if MCC “erred anywhere it was in letting some support
get to him when we already knew how he stood.”117 This concern came to
head that summer when Orie Miller was interrogated by American federal
investigators who were concerned about the pro-Nazi sentiments in the
Mennonite colony in Paraguay and mentioned Unruh by name. Miller
told the investigators"

So the intelligence people knew something, for sure. Now I knew several "terrorists" socially when I lived in Jordan. One of them was the uncle of one of my teachers. I never got called in, or for that matter, asked about it. So by 1944, they should have known about it.

So why do you think MCC didn’t cut ties?

[Judas Maccabeus]

If the US wasn’t at war with Germany, and Unruh wasn’t a Nazi, do you think that Mennonites would have settled more in the US instead of going to South America and Canada?
What if the France or Poland was the aggressor instead of Germany, and Germany was an Allied country? Would have the Mennonites in Ukraine come to the US?

What if…

The article mentions the Ukrainian mennonite leadership were suspicious of Candace because the land plot grid on the prairie was against their German culture.

Having traveled in Germany by rail a fair amount, one thing you immediately notice is that residences are clustered in villages, sometimes away from their fields, and seem to live in the village rather than on their fields. Doing the same thing in the Americas, that most live on their land, and villages are much more separated. I think that is what he is referring to.

[Judas Maccabeus]

US intelligence efforts were much less extensive before WW2 than afterward, so it wouldn't surprise me if Unruh was entirely unknown to the US government before the war.

I came to this with that idea in mind. However on page 181 of the Neufield-Fast article, I read the following?

"By 1944 Bender commiserated with Orie O. Miller, MCC executive
secretary, “how all of us were greatly disturbed that we should be
retaining Unruh on our payroll while he was openly agitating against
nonresistance. Our failure to repudiate Unruh resulted in a magnification
of his influence.”116 Shortly thereafter, MCC chair P. C. Hiebert conceded
“that Brother B. H. Unruh wholeheartedly supported the Nazi
movement,” and if MCC “erred anywhere it was in letting some support
get to him when we already knew how he stood.”117 This concern came to
head that summer when Orie Miller was interrogated by American federal
investigators who were concerned about the pro-Nazi sentiments in the
Mennonite colony in Paraguay and mentioned Unruh by name. Miller
told the investigators"

So the intelligence people knew something, for sure. Now I knew several "terrorists" socially when I lived in Jordan. One of them was the uncle of one of my teachers. I never got called in, or for that matter, asked about it. So by 1944, they should have known about it.

So why do you think MCC didn’t cut ties?

I don’t think they could believe Mennonites could do what they were doing, assuming they knew the big picture. We do not know what they were told, if anything.

[Szdfan]

I came to this with that idea in mind. However on page 181 of the Neufield-Fast article, I read the following?

"By 1944 Bender commiserated with Orie O. Miller, MCC executive
secretary, “how all of us were greatly disturbed that we should be
retaining Unruh on our payroll while he was openly agitating against
nonresistance. Our failure to repudiate Unruh resulted in a magnification
of his influence.”116 Shortly thereafter, MCC chair P. C. Hiebert conceded
“that Brother B. H. Unruh wholeheartedly supported the Nazi
movement,” and if MCC “erred anywhere it was in letting some support
get to him when we already knew how he stood.”117 This concern came to
head that summer when Orie Miller was interrogated by American federal
investigators who were concerned about the pro-Nazi sentiments in the
Mennonite colony in Paraguay and mentioned Unruh by name. Miller
told the investigators"

So the intelligence people knew something, for sure. Now I knew several "terrorists" socially when I lived in Jordan. One of them was the uncle of one of my teachers. I never got called in, or for that matter, asked about it. So by 1944, they should have known about it.

So why do you think MCC didn’t cut ties?

I don’t think they could believe Mennonites could do what they were doing, assuming they knew the big picture. We do not know what they were told, if anything.

Sorry…I didn’t intend to hit the “blah” icon.

From the quotes you provided, it sounds like MCC knew quite a bit, even if they didn’t know how the whole picture. I wonder if it’s similar to when churches and church institutions protect charismatic leaders accused of abuse. There’s a desire not to know.

Sometimes institutions fail not because they don’t know, but because they can’t admit to themselves what they know.

[barnhart]

If the US wasn’t at war with Germany, and Unruh wasn’t a Nazi, do you think that Mennonites would have settled more in the US instead of going to South America and Canada?
What if the France or Poland was the aggressor instead of Germany, and Germany was an Allied country? Would have the Mennonites in Ukraine come to the US?

What if…

The article mentions the Ukrainian mennonite leadership were suspicious of Candace because the land plot grid on the prairie was against their German culture.

Having traveled in Germany by rail a fair amount, one thing you immediately notice is that residences are clustered in villages, sometimes away from their fields, and seem to live in the village rather than on their fields. Doing the same thing in the Americas, that most live on their land, and villages are much more separated. I think that is what he is referring to.

Yes. The prairie grid in Western Canada does foster a type of society, I don't know that it was intentional, it may have been an artifact of the survey system, but it set the tone for the cultural values that would follow.

[Neto]

The article mentions the Ukrainian mennonite leadership were suspicious of Candace because the land plot grid on the prairie was against their German culture.

Having traveled in Germany by rail a fair amount, one thing you immediately notice is that residences are clustered in villages, sometimes away from their fields, and seem to live in the village rather than on their fields. Doing the same thing in the Americas, that most live on their land, and villages are much more separated. I think that is what he is referring to.

Yes. The prairie grid in Western Canada does foster a type of society, I don't know that it was intentional, it may have been an artifact of the survey system, but it set the tone for the cultural values that would follow.

Who is this Candace referred to above? Is that supposed to be Canada? If so, then I will say that, as my dad always said, the most religious Mennonites chose to go to Canada over the USA, because of the more extensive religious freedoms offered by Canada. (Those who settled in the US put similar climate over religious concerns. All of my ancestors settled in Kansas and Nebraska, so that weights my dad's comment, because it was a recognition of their lack of spiritual zeal. From what I understand, none of them were Mennonite Brethren at that time. My great grandpa Buller was the only one of his siblings who ever became a Christian.) It was the US that required that each family live on their own land, generally for 5 years, before it became legally theirs.

Another reason for the more spiritual Mennonites (certainly Mennonite Brethren, I don't know if other Mennonites held this position) to choose Canada was that they regarded the United States as "a nation doomed to destruction", because they had rebelled against the king, something forbidden in Scripture. That view is based on nonresistance. This also emphasizes the degree to which B. Unruh should have been excommunicated by the MB congregation where he was a member. I suspect that he sort of 'fell through the cracks' in the midst of the other issues faced by all Mennonites during that period. I have not seen any indication that he ever returned to his place of birth after age 19 or 20.

[barnhart]

Having traveled in Germany by rail a fair amount, one thing you immediately notice is that residences are clustered in villages, sometimes away from their fields, and seem to live in the village rather than on their fields. Doing the same thing in the Americas, that most live on their land, and villages are much more separated. I think that is what he is referring to.

Yes. The prairie grid in Western Canada does foster a type of society, I don't know that it was intentional, it may have been an artifact of the survey system, but it set the tone for the cultural values that would follow.

Who is this Candace referred to above? Is that supposed to be Canada?

Yes, the software on my phone sometimes decides what I should have typed.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The article mentions the Ukrainian mennonite leadership were suspicious of Candace because the land plot grid on the prairie was against their German culture.

Having traveled in Germany by rail a fair amount, one thing you immediately notice is that residences are clustered in villages, sometimes away from their fields, and seem to live in the village rather than on their fields. Doing the same thing in the Americas, that most live on their land, and villages are much more separated. I think that is what he is referring to.

Yes. The prairie grid in Western Canada does foster a type of society, I don't know that it was intentional, it may have been an artifact of the survey system, but it set the tone for the cultural values that would follow.

Did Canada have something like the Northwest Territories Act in the United States that mandated the grid/section/township division? That is where ours comes from. One of the few things that worked in the Articles of Confederation.