The Josh we don't want to hear about

[joshuabgood]

Well...as I noted I am currently reading the book. About 2/3 through...seems like a fairly honest inquiry so far that isn't particularly prescriptive for the reader. He pushes on complementarians and egalitarians.

Have you read the book?

[ohio jones]

Of course there is scripture to support this, Eve was created to be a "helpmeet" ...

According to Debi Pearl anyway. That's the problem with 21st century people using an 18th century translation and not accounting for language changes. If we could just keep from portmanteauing the two words into one (which the Debi we don't want to hear about does not do, to her credit), mentally or physically inserting a comma or other punctuation between the separate words might help the interpretation be meet to the intent of the text.

[Soloist]

Of course there is scripture to support this, Eve was created to be a "helpmeet" ...

According to Debi Pearl anyway. That's the problem with 21st century people using an 18th century translation and not accounting for language changes. If we could just keep from portmanteauing the two words into one (which the Debi we don't want to hear about does not do, to her credit), mentally or physically inserting a comma or other punctuation between the separate words might help the interpretation be meet to the intent of the text.

Perhaps but that verse doesn’t form a doctrine on its own. It’s complementary to the others even if misapplied

[Neto]

I am readingj currently, From Genesis to Junia by Preston Sprinkle.

In the book he notes that Hebrew world translated Helpmeet, is actually almost always used in the Bible to describe God as man's helper. So to assume some sort of subordination from this word really doesn't follow. A woman is a helper to a man like God is a helper to Israel.

I was going to raise this point as a response to Neto but you beat me to it. More important is the passages from Paul about the relationships between men and women which can seem to have a real clarity but comparing them with the actual examples in the New testament on how women were integrated into the work of the church leave me wondering how to put the two together.

I'd like to hear a bit more on this. I think other translations render the Genesis passage in wording like "an helper fit for him". In other words" Just exactly what he needed". Maybe that's too 'complementarian' for some here, but I wasn't aware of any options other than complementarian and eglatarian. (I first encountered this whole controversy on the Mennonite forum where I "met" Sudsy, one that was run by the Canadian Mennonite Brethren conference. There was a pretty full range of ideas represented there along these lines, so the discussion was quite "lively", and I was one of the few who were tagged as 'complementarian'. It was only later that MennoDiscuss came to be, and then some while even later until I joined MD, and now MN.)

But to be more to the point, I'd like to hear these two positions defined by those using these terms here on MN, and also a description of other 'positions'. In respect to having been tagged with the complementarian position on MBForum.CA, I was only claiming to be following the Biblically straight-forward or 'self-evident' understanding. Rather presumptuous of me, I suppose.

[joshuabgood]

I think the Hebrew word is Ezer. Used over 30 times in the OT...and mostly used to describe God as a helper to Israel. It seems compelling to me that in fact it requires a "prejudicial" mindset to make it mean something with regard to "subordination" of women.

[ken_sylvania]

I think the Hebrew word is Ezer. Used over 30 times in the OT...and mostly used to describe God as a helper to Israel. It seems compelling to me that in fact it requires a "prejudicial" mindset to make it mean something with regard to "subordination" of women.

I think that's a rather unfair accusation. Are you saying that you think Paul's "prejudicial mindset" is what caused him to link this to God's design that the man should be the head of the woman?

[JohnH]

Well...as I noted I am currently reading the book. About 2/3 through...seems like a fairly honest inquiry so far that isn't particularly prescriptive for the reader. He pushes on complementarians and egalitarians.

Have you read the book?

I read a summary and listened to an interview with him.

I have a limit on how many books I read that promote false doctrine, so reading his entire book may be something I do at some point in the future, but not now. I have read enough other books promoting the idea that women should be ordained as leaders in churches that I have had my fill for a while.

[JohnH]

Of course there is scripture to support this, Eve was created to be a "helpmeet" ...

According to Debi Pearl anyway. That's the problem with 21st century people using an 18th century translation and not accounting for language changes. If we could just keep from portmanteauing the two words into one (which the Debi we don't want to hear about does not do, to her credit), mentally or physically inserting a comma or other punctuation between the separate words might help the interpretation be meet to the intent of the text.

Sometimes I hear people say "helpmate", and other times "help meet"; I am not really sure what term these people exactly are using or saying. I think it might be a term of art in such circles.

[joshuabgood]

I think the Hebrew word is Ezer. Used over 30 times in the OT...and mostly used to describe God as a helper to Israel. It seems compelling to me that in fact it requires a "prejudicial" mindset to make it mean something with regard to "subordination" of women.

I think that's a rather unfair accusation. Are you saying that you think Paul's "prejudicial mindset" is what caused him to link this to God's design that the man should be the head of the woman?

No I am not making a statement about Paul, only that ezer doesnt mean subordinate. The woman being a helper to man and therefore his subordinate requires some presuppositions that aren't in the text. Woman is a helper to man like God is a helper to Israel. Subordination doesnt follow...unless one comes to the text with an end in mind. Regarding the "help meet" language.

[JohnH]

Doesn't the Bible describe Jesus and God as Lord, and supreme over us?