I think we may be starting from very different assumptions about apostolic authority and how the New Testament fits together. I also think we have very different understandings of what these texts say at a fairly basic level.
Without some shared ground on that, I’m not sure we can have a productive conversation about Paul, James, or Gnosticism. And it is certainly not the subject of this thread.
The State Sponsored church of Constantine made following the doctrines of men instead of Christ much worse in the 4th century than it ever was in the 1st Century.
The Church of Constantine and her offspring have never recovered from this heresy, even today.
I agree with you on both points. I disagree strongly on the authority of the entire New Testament and on the Gospel of Thomas, but I think we still see Constantinianism today. For instance, in the glorification of war, treating political figures as religious figures, seeking political power, and seeing political kingdoms as more real and more important than the Kingdom of God.
Even on Mennonet, I have seen people complain that some do not "reverence" political leaders. Should Christians do that?
0 x
1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
I think we may be starting from very different assumptions about apostolic authority and how the New Testament fits together. I also think we have very different understandings of what these texts say at a fairly basic level.
Without some shared ground on that, I’m not sure we can have a productive conversation about Paul, James, or Gnosticism. And it is certainly not the subject of this thread.
The State Sponsored church of Constantine made following the doctrines of men instead of Christ much worse in the 4th century than it ever was in the 1st Century.
The Church of Constantine and her offspring have never recovered from this heresy, even today.
I agree with you on both points. I disagree strongly on the authority of the entire New Testament and on the Gospel of Thomas, but I think we still see Constantinianism today. For instance, in the glorification of war, treating political figures as religious figures, seeking political power, and seeing political kingdoms as more real and more important than the Kingdom of God.
Even on Mennonet, I have seen people complain that some do not "reverence" political leaders. Should Christians do that?
No, I suppose it would be better not to complain. We are told that in everything we should give thanks.
You say that you have seen "people" on Mennonet complain about how some don't "reverence" political leaders. The use of the quotes around "reverence" would typically mean that "reverence" is the actual these "people" (plural) used. Is it true that multiple people complain about how people don't "reverence" political leaders?
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2026 1:05 pmYou say that you have seen "people" on Mennonet complain about how some don't "reverence" political leaders. The use of the quotes around "reverence" would typically mean that "reverence" is the actual these "people" (plural) used. Is it true that multiple people complain about how people don't "reverence" political leaders?
Some have used other synonyms or phrases.
0 x
1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2026 1:05 pmYou say that you have seen "people" on Mennonet complain about how some don't "reverence" political leaders. The use of the quotes around "reverence" would typically mean that "reverence" is the actual these "people" (plural) used. Is it true that multiple people complain about how people don't "reverence" political leaders?
Some have used other synonyms or phrases.
OK. I personally would feel misquoted you were using that description to refer to my criticism of the lack of respect and honor that's accorded to the President by people who profess to be Christians.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2026 1:05 pmYou say that you have seen "people" on Mennonet complain about how some don't "reverence" political leaders. The use of the quotes around "reverence" would typically mean that "reverence" is the actual these "people" (plural) used. Is it true that multiple people complain about how people don't "reverence" political leaders?
Some have used other synonyms or phrases.
OK. I personally would feel misquoted you were using that description to refer to my criticism of the lack of respect and honor that's accorded to the President by people who profess to be Christians.
I wasn't thinking of you. If I were, I agree that it would be misinterpreting you.
I generally think you are in this very biblical camp:
Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
I think the Bible says that in a number of places:
I don't believe the King is beyond criticism, but I do think we should be respectful. And I think there is an important line between honoring and reverencing.
0 x
1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2026 6:26 pm
You can be specific about who you have a problem with instead of “people” on “MennoNet”. I think it’s weasely to say that.
I don't. To me, the goal of discussing these things is to think about what is good and right and what is wrong in a biblical sense, not to point fingers and say who the good people and bad people are.
Tribalism and party spirit are counterproductive. I really don't want to characterize people, I want to think about what the Bible teaches us.
When people think I must be sneakily implying nasty things about people I won't identify, I wonder why they think that. Is that expected, normal behavior?
1 x
1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2026 6:26 pm
You can be specific about who you have a problem with instead of “people” on “MennoNet”. I think it’s weasely to say that.
I don't. To me, the goal of discussing these things is to think about what is good and right and what is wrong in a biblical sense, not to point fingers and say who the good people and bad people are.
Tribalism and party spirit are counterproductive. I really don't want to characterize people, I want to think about what the Bible teaches us.
When people think I must be sneakily implying nasty things about people I won't identify, I wonder why they think that. Is that expected, normal behavior?
Even on Mennonet, I have seen people complain that some do not "reverence" political leaders. Should Christians do that?
Dude, it's painfully obvious who you are referring to.
JohnH wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2026 6:26 pm
You can be specific about who you have a problem with instead of “people” on “MennoNet”. I think it’s weasely to say that.
I don't. To me, the goal of discussing these things is to think about what is good and right and what is wrong in a biblical sense, not to point fingers and say who the good people and bad people are.
Tribalism and party spirit are counterproductive. I really don't want to characterize people, I want to think about what the Bible teaches us.
When people think I must be sneakily implying nasty things about people I won't identify, I wonder why they think that. Is that expected, normal behavior?
Even on Mennonet, I have seen people complain that some do not "reverence" political leaders. Should Christians do that?
Dude, it's painfully obvious who you are referring to.
This is not about any one person, so if you think this is painfully obvious, you are wrong. And I don't think Christians should turn away from discussing principle and what the Bible teaches and turn towards conflict, personalizing and polarizing and going after people.
Please, don't do that. Allow people to discuss what the Bible teaches and what is good in a more uplifting way.
0 x
1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.