The Theological Crisis of Zionism: Blasphemy, Supremacism, and the West

[JohnH]

!. Does it have an explicitly anti-Christian identity?

That depends on if “Jewish” means “can’t be Christian”.

Someone can be Japanese or Chinese or Persian or Tongan and be a Christian. Converting to Christianity doesn’t make someone stop being Japanese or Persian.

If a nation’s identity is “X”, yet the definition of “X” is “you stop being X if you convert to Christianity”, then yes, it’s anti-Christian.

I'm not going to try and decide for the Jews who can and cannot be Jewish; I'll leave that to the Rebbes. I do think it's a more complicated and nuanced affair than say a "Japanese Christian" or a "Persian Christian" because the religion is the essence and very source of their peoplehood. I recognize that in the modern-day that intertwinedness between religion and ethnicity has become a lot more fluid and even disentangled. I would hazard a guess though that the majority of Jews and probably all religious Jews would think the term "Jewish Christian" an oxymoron, much as they would the term "Jewish Muslim".

Well, I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying… but it does mean the nation’s alleged foundation is founded on being “not Christian”. That’s not a very good foundation, now, is it?

But regardless of that, it doesn’t seem like something Christians should support at all.

I used to attend church in Tel Aviv. I had to get vetted first before I would be told the secret location. Then someone would meet me on the street and let me in. They asked me my testimony too before I got told where to meet on the street. I guess my testimony was sufficient. (They were Jewish Christians, or since such a thing apparently can’t exist, they were people of Jewish ethnic who were Christians now - I guess we have no term for their ethnic background, now, do we?)

Of course I, as a Gentile, could worship how I pleased at a Protestant church in Yafo (Joppa) or Nazareth or anywhere else.

[barnhart]

Well yes, that is an interesting nuance but then again so what. If Israel wants to fence its society in the religious aspect, so be it. Plenty of other countries do as well. I don’t have to like it but I think it makes sense if you see it from the perspective of the Jews.

Do the same rules apply to Islam, Ancestor worship paganism, Buddhism, or is it more an anti-christian doctrine?

I'm not sure what you're driving at with the question there, Barnhart. I don't think Israel's stance is ipso facto "anti-Christian", and I'm not sure what "rules" you're referring to.

I think most cultures across human history have sought to fence off their society in certain ways as a form of self-preservation. It's only been in the post-WWII era that the concept of of an "Open Society" a la Karl Popper has come to attain and been seen as normative for modern states. There certainly are advantages and disadvantages to both a closed and open society and most states fall somewhere on the spectrum between the two poles. A completely closed society, think Japan in the 1800's, tends to fail, as would a hypothetical, completely open society. I'm not advocating for the Israeli policy as it stands; just simply pointing out that it's perfectly in line with their mission as a nation and not terribly controversial or different from that of many other nation-states around the world.

I don't begrudge Israel (much) if they choose to discriminate against Jews who believe in Jesus, as you say they are free to chart their own course. I can say that because I see the modern nation state of Israel as a secular power, not a sacred project.

[JohnH]

I don't begrudge Israel (much) if they choose to discriminate against Jews who believe in Jesus, as you say they are free to chart their own course. I can say that because I see them as a secular power, not a sacred project.

Agreed.

There should be a term though for people who are just as Jewish as a secular, non-religious Jew like Larry Ellison, a practicing Orthodox like Stephen Miller, or a nominally practicing Jew like Howard Lutnick.

What ethnic group were the people I fellowshipped with? They all spoke Hebrew. They were second or third generation Christians. They ate stereotypically kosher Israeli food - not out of religious obligation but simply because it was what they were used to. They felt at home in Israel and their families were some of the early settlers in the 1940s. One family had escaped the Holocaust - with some relatives who did not survive it. The pastor’s daughter was eagerly involved with working with Bible translators on Chinese projects since her area of graduate study was classical Hebrew poetic literature.

They weren’t Palestinians. One family lived in the notorious settlement of Ariel. I heard open bigotry expressed towards Arab workers - a common thing in Israel. (This isn’t meant to shame them, but to simply express they were very much cultural and ethnic Jewish Israelis.) I was also impressed how the pastor interacted with this family, applying Christian principles to the conflict this family felt with the Arab contractors working on their settlement home.

Could it be as Christians we must abandon all former identities?

[barnhart]

HK, how would you feel if the US leans more into its protestant Christian identity and starts to deny immigration or residency to Jews or other non-protestants or restricts freedoms like right to worship to those who convert away from protestant Christianity?

[HondurasKeiser]

HK, how would you feel if the US leans more into its protestant Christian identity and starts to deny immigration or residency to Jews or other non-protestants or restricts freedoms like right to worship to those who convert away from protestant Christianity?

I wouldn't like it at all but the U.S. is explicitly not a nation-state. It's a country built on an idea, not an ethnicity or religion.

[barnhart]

HK, how would you feel if the US leans more into its protestant Christian identity and starts to deny immigration or residency to Jews or other non-protestants or restricts freedoms like right to worship to those who convert away from protestant Christianity?

I wouldn't like it at all but the U.S. is explicitly not a nation-state. It's a country built on an idea, not an ethnicity or religion.

May your kind grow and increase.

[JohnH]

HK, how would you feel if the US leans more into its protestant Christian identity and starts to deny immigration or residency to Jews or other non-protestants or restricts freedoms like right to worship to those who convert away from protestant Christianity?

I wouldn't like it at all but the U.S. is explicitly not a nation-state. It's a country built on an idea, not an ethnicity or religion.

May your kind grow and increase.

And what idea would that be?

[HondurasKeiser]

I wouldn't like it at all but the U.S. is explicitly not a nation-state. It's a country built on an idea, not an ethnicity or religion.

May your kind grow and increase.

And what idea would that be?

It’s not a single idea, but if I had to sum it up in a word it would be Liberalism. I’m not Liberalism’s biggest fan but it’s nevertheless true that the United States is a propositional country, not a nation-state and the proposition underlying the American system is Liberalism.

[JohnH]

May your kind grow and increase.

And what idea would that be?

It’s not a single idea, but if I had to sum it up in a word it would be Liberalism. I’m not Liberalism’s biggest fan but it’s nevertheless true that the United States is a propositional country, not a nation-state and the proposition underlying the American system is Liberalism.

Good answer. I agree.

[Justfiguringitout]

It’s a state composed of and for people that are explicitly Jewish. I think that’s not terribly different from Japan being a state composed of and for people that are explicitly Japanese. Not that there can’t be or isnt diversity within that composition, but the state exists as such to preserve the Jewish people. I don’t see that as terribly controversial because, with few modern exceptions, the U.S. being the most notable one, most states around the world exist for that same idea of «preserving the nation ».

A rather key difference is that a Japanese person can also be a Christian.

Well yes, that is an interesting nuance but then again so what. If Israel wants to fence its society in the religious aspect, so be it. Plenty of other countries do as well. I don’t have to like it but I think it makes sense if you see it from the perspective of the Jews.

Yes, but take for example Muslim countries. In many you are not allowed to be an atheist. Whereas in Israel, if you are Jewish and "converted" to atheism, you are welcome to make aliyah, but if you by the same token you have become Muslim or Christian, you are not. That isn't really fencing the religious aspect. It is only excluding other religion, but not preserving their own religion as theoretically the whole country could become atheist with no repercussions.