The Theological Crisis of Zionism: Blasphemy, Supremacism, and the West

[HondurasKeiser]

Well yes, that is an interesting nuance but then again so what. If Israel wants to fence its society in the religious aspect, so be it. Plenty of other countries do as well. I don’t have to like it but I think it makes sense if you see it from the perspective of the Jews.

I have difficulty seeing any value in a point of view that explicitly rejects Christ and his message.

It is the point of view of those utterly deluded by the Deceiver.

I’m not saying if it doesn’t or doesn’t have value. Just pointing out that for the Jewish internal logic of self-preservation it makes perfect sense and is nary different from the logic of most other nation-states around the world.

[JimFoxvog]

A rather key difference is that a Japanese person can also be a Christian.

A Jewish person can also be a Christian, according to the Jewish Christians that I have known. "Jewish", in addition to meaning those who believe in the God of the Old Testament, also means a cultural identity. My Jewish Christian friends did not reject that identity, but embraced it more strongly when they came to know that Jesus is the Messiah the scriptures foretold.

[Valerie]

A rather key difference is that a Japanese person can also be a Christian.

A Jewish person can also be a Christian, according to the Jewish Christians that I have known. "Jewish", in addition to meaning those who believe in the God of the Old Testament, also means a cultural identity. My Jewish Christian friends did not reject that identity, but embraced it more strongly when they came to know that Jesus is the Messiah the scriptures foretold.

After all, as Apostle Paul explained in Romans chapters 9-11, they are “the Root” of our faith and can be grafted in “again” - I think they should embrace their roots/heritage.

[barnhart]

It’s a state composed of and for people that are explicitly Jewish. I think that’s not terribly different from Japan being a state composed of and for people that are explicitly Japanese. Not that there can’t be or isnt diversity within that composition, but the state exists as such to preserve the Jewish people. I don’t see that as terribly controversial because, with few modern exceptions, the U.S. being the most notable one, most states around the world exist for that same idea of «preserving the nation ».

A rather key difference is that a Japanese person can also be a Christian.

Well yes, that is an interesting nuance but then again so what. If Israel wants to fence its society in the religious aspect, so be it. Plenty of other countries do as well. I don’t have to like it but I think it makes sense if you see it from the perspective of the Jews.

Do the same rules apply to Islam, Ancestor worship paganism, Buddhism, or is it more an anti-christian doctrine?

[JohnH]

Do the same rules apply to Islam, Ancestor worship paganism, Buddhism, or is it more an anti-christian doctrine?

What do you think?

[HondurasKeiser]

A rather key difference is that a Japanese person can also be a Christian.

Well yes, that is an interesting nuance but then again so what. If Israel wants to fence its society in the religious aspect, so be it. Plenty of other countries do as well. I don’t have to like it but I think it makes sense if you see it from the perspective of the Jews.

Do the same rules apply to Islam, Ancestor worship paganism, Buddhism, or is it more an anti-christian doctrine?

I'm not sure what you're driving at with the question there, Barnhart. I don't think Israel's stance is ipso facto "anti-Christian", and I'm not sure what "rules" you're referring to.

I think most cultures across human history have sought to fence off their society in certain ways as a form of self-preservation. It's only been in the post-WWII era that the concept of of an "Open Society" a la Karl Popper has come to attain and been seen as normative for modern states. There certainly are advantages and disadvantages to both a closed and open society and most states fall somewhere on the spectrum between the two poles. A completely closed society, think Japan in the 1800's, tends to fail, as would a hypothetical, completely open society. I'm not advocating for the Israeli policy as it stands; just simply pointing out that it's perfectly in line with their mission as a nation and not terribly controversial or different from that of many other nation-states around the world.

[JohnH]

I think most cultures across human history have sought to fence off their society in certain ways as a form of self-preservation. It's only been in the post-WWII era that the concept of of an "Open Society" a la Karl Popper has come to attain and been seen as normative for modern states. There certainly are advantages and disadvantages to both a closed and open society and most states fall somewhere on the spectrum between the two poles. A completely closed society, think Japan in the 1800's, tends to fail, as would a hypothetical, completely open society. I'm not advocating for the Israeli policy as it stands, simply pointing out that it's perfectly in line with their mission as a nation and not terribly controversial or different from that of many other nation-states around the world.

A country that has an explicitly anti-Christian identity does, however, raise questions as to why some Christians seem to feel it’s some God-given imperative that such a country prosper and enlarge its borders.

[HondurasKeiser]

I think most cultures across human history have sought to fence off their society in certain ways as a form of self-preservation. It's only been in the post-WWII era that the concept of of an "Open Society" a la Karl Popper has come to attain and been seen as normative for modern states. There certainly are advantages and disadvantages to both a closed and open society and most states fall somewhere on the spectrum between the two poles. A completely closed society, think Japan in the 1800's, tends to fail, as would a hypothetical, completely open society. I'm not advocating for the Israeli policy as it stands, simply pointing out that it's perfectly in line with their mission as a nation and not terribly controversial or different from that of many other nation-states around the world.

A country that has an explicitly anti-Christian identity does, however, raise questions as to why some Christians seem to feel it’s some God-given imperative that such a country prosper and enlarge its borders.

!. Does it have an explicitly anti-Christian identity?
2. Are "those Christians" on this board?

[JohnH]

!. Does it have an explicitly anti-Christian identity?

That depends on if “Jewish” means “can’t be Christian”.

Someone can be Japanese or Chinese or Persian or Tongan and be a Christian. Converting to Christianity doesn’t make someone stop being Japanese or Persian.

If a nation’s identity is “X”, yet the definition of “X” is “you stop being X if you convert to Christianity”, then yes, it’s anti-Christian.

2. Are "those Christians" on this board?

We have at least 1. Mike Huckabee is an example of another.

[HondurasKeiser]

!. Does it have an explicitly anti-Christian identity?

That depends on if “Jewish” means “can’t be Christian”.

Someone can be Japanese or Chinese or Persian or Tongan and be a Christian. Converting to Christianity doesn’t make someone stop being Japanese or Persian.

If a nation’s identity is “X”, yet the definition of “X” is “you stop being X if you convert to Christianity”, then yes, it’s anti-Christian.

I'm not going to try and decide for the Jews who can and cannot be Jewish; I'll leave that to the Rebbes. I do think it's a more complicated and nuanced affair than say a "Japanese Christian" or a "Persian Christian" because the religion is the essence and very source of their peoplehood. I recognize that in the modern-day that intertwinedness between religion and ethnicity has become a lot more fluid and even disentangled. I would hazard a guess though that the majority of Jews and probably all religious Jews would think the term "Jewish Christian" an oxymoron, much as they would the term "Jewish Muslim".

2. Are "those Christians" on this board?

We have at least 1. Mike Huckabee is an example of another.

I guess I haven't seen those posts here. I don't really concern myself with Mr. Huckabee.