Should individuals have to identify themselves to the government?

[JohnH]

A recurring topic is whether or not the citizenry (or non-citizenry) should have to take any action to prove their identity other than just a simple affirmation.

In the present era, we have problems with mass identity theft used to mass levels of fraud across unemployment benefits, medical benefits, food stamps, employment (which is government controlled and requires submitting identity information to the government to be legally employed), or opening a bank account.

Unemployment got bilked billions of dollars in 2020 most of which went to organised fraud rings. My account had attempts to steal benefits as did my brother (when neither of us were even unemployed). Fortunately my state caught both of the attempts and blocked them. I think we can agree billions of dollars shouldn’t flow from unemployment taxes to organised crime.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/ni ... d-17-other

Medical benefits are no different. Fraudsters obtain information about people enrolled in Medicaid (or just to enroll random people, often children or elderly in hospice) and then submit millions or billions in claims for care that was never provided, or inflated charges and taking kickbacks.

https://texasborderbusiness.com/nearly- ... -takedown/

Food stamps also suffer from mass fraud. Sometimes people get enrolled and a fraudster simply cleans out the benefits. Other shady gas stations install card skimmers and sell the data to organised crime, who then runs up sham transactions to empty out the accounts - hundreds of millions of dollars.

https://www.gao.gov/blog/stolen-snap-be ... s-millions

Identity theft is common in employment since employers can be lax and not verify employees are who they say they are, and submit someone else’s name and SSN on tax records. It is required by law to submit this information to the government. This is routinely defrauded by people who use other people’s information, leaving that person on the hook to prove they don’t owe the fraudster’s taxes.

I could go on, but it is obviously a challenge to prove people are who they say they are, particularly with high amount of population churn and all kinds of people coming and going who may be from cultures where rampant dishonesty is the norm, and punishments are usually a bribe paid to a government official. In light of this, the stricter requirements around identification seem reasonable.

Some say they are not reasonable, but I ask what else can be done to help victims of these frauds: unemployed who don’t get benefits they paid for when they need them most. Hungry people who find out the month’s food stamps are all gone. Workers who get a tax bill. And strained Medicaid funds that can’t help the poorest and sickest people because funds run dry due to mass fraud.

In light of this, acceptable ID that is not fake seems reasonable. If you are who you say you are, you should be comfortable proving it.

[temporal1]

It’s real life.
With variations, i believe true in every country.

i expect to provide precise current documentation when in other countries, AND, precise current documentation when reentering the U.S. (i’ve read) leaving the U.S. is easy, reentry not so much. For legal U.S. citizens. Esp wrt proof of vaccinations.

What is all the pretending we all exist like feral cats?

[Valerie]

It’s real life.
With variations, i believe true in every country.

i expect to provide precise current documentation when in other countries, AND, precise current documentation when reentering the U.S. (i’ve read) leaving the U.S. is easy, reentry not so much. For legal U.S. citizens. Esp wrt proof of vaccinations.

What is all the pretending we all exist like feral cats?

The “pretending “ is just that and the hope is that people fall for it under the guise of compassion by making the (fake) case that not all Americans can have or gather papers necessary to prove who they are and where from. It’s downright insulting to paint the picture that people are that incapable but we know why the Democrats are really fighting it. We are not assuming that Republicans would automatically win elections if you remove the ability to cheat, but it will make elections more trustworthy thereby making their outcomes more acceptable.

It’s equal opportunity voter ID. Democrats and Republicans should want it, why would one parties leaders want it, and the other party leaders kick & scream about it?

[ohio jones]

i expect to provide precise current documentation when in other countries, AND, precise current documentation when reentering the U.S. (i’ve read) leaving the U.S. is easy, reentry not so much. For legal U.S. citizens. Esp wrt proof of vaccinations.

Covid is over. The only vaccination requirement for travel is yellow fever in some parts of the southern hemisphere.

I reentered the US two days ago without showing any documentation whatsoever, though of course I had it readily available. YMMV usw.

[R7ehr]

Yes, citizens should have to identify themselves to the government to receive services and to vote, or cross a national border, or doing a regulated activity.

No, they should not have to identify themselves to the government upon demand of the government without cause.
If they are not doing a regulated activity such as walking, filming where lawful, interacting freely with the police, they should not be forced to submit to “show me your papers” as free people.

[temporal1]

i expect to provide precise current documentation when in other countries, AND, precise current documentation when reentering the U.S. (i’ve read) leaving the U.S. is easy, reentry not so much. For legal U.S. citizens. Esp wrt proof of vaccinations.

Covid is over. The only vaccination requirement for travel is yellow fever in some parts of the southern hemisphere.

I reentered the US two days ago without showing any documentation whatsoever, though of course I had it readily available. YMMV usw.

i was thinking of yellow fever, also, how quickly policies can change, as they did with covid.
My daughter took a quick business trip to Canada when covid was a whisper in news, leaving her daughter with friends.

i warned her to be careful, borders can be closed quickly, with little warning.
Her friends might have a longer stay than planned, not to mention, what-if of mystery illness.

She returned without border drama, which soon followed, but - soon came down with a horrific flu. Could have been covid. Late 2019-2020. Could have been. The first U.S. covid outbreak was in their neighborhood.

Following that, ebola and monkeypox have presented some threats of border problems, the shoe bomber muddied things drastically.
i’m not well traveled like you and others, i advise family to be aware, informed, take nothing forgranted.

My advice, watch the State Dept website.

[temporal1]

Yes, citizens should have to identify themselves to the government to receive services and to vote, or cross a national border, or doing a regulated activity.

No, they should not have to identify themselves to the government upon demand of the government without cause.
If they are not doing a regulated activity such as walking, filming where lawful, interacting freely with the police, they should not be forced to submit to “show me your papers” as free people.

i agree, with modification that in special circumstances, with adequate explanation and warnings (as has been done presently) temporary exceptions can be acceptable.

The present problems are due to deeply partisan conflicts a few governors+mayors decided to exploit for personal+party interests.

[Neto]

Does this lead into a discussion of federal ID cards?

If so, I think that having EVERYONE'S fingerprints in a federal data base should help identify criminals who are guilty of a first offense. But I realize that there are other factors.
1.) I wonder if the government would be satisfied with just fingerprints. Next would be DNA samples.
So far so good, at least for law-abiding legal residents.
However, there is another thing that comes to mind -
2.) Federal over-reach in an event such as that it become illegal to be involved in Christian belief and practice.
(We may tend to think that this cannot and will not ever happen in this country. But while they were not identified in this manner, it happened to my people after the fall of the Russian Empire. Something like this, in terms of efforts to suppress faith, IS also happening in some other countries, right now. I'm not trying to scare anyone - just to be watchful, and ready.)

[JohnH]

Does this lead into a discussion of federal ID cards?

If so, I think that having EVERYONE'S fingerprints in a federal data base should help identify criminals who are guilty of a first offense. But I realize that there are other factors.

They actually already are. When someone is booked they generally are fingerprinted. This is mostly done for purposes of identification though.

1.) I wonder if the government would be satisfied with just fingerprints. Next would be DNA samples.

This is also already done except doing so is expensive so it is not universal.

So far so good, at least for law-abiding legal residents.
However, there is another thing that comes to mind -
2.) Federal over-reach in an event such as that it become illegal to be involved in Christian belief and practice.

Yes. This raises very tough questions. We can be glad we don’t have to face them… yet. Covid got close, but the government (via the courts) stopped and turned away from that.

(We may tend to think that this cannot and will not ever happen in this country. But while they were not identified in this manner, it happened to my people after the fall of the Russian Empire. Something like this, in terms of efforts to suppress faith, IS also happening in some other countries, right now. I'm not trying to scare anyone - just to be watchful, and ready.)

Well, it didn’t happen in the Russian Empire. Those who stayed in Russia did fine and ultimately conscription was a non-issue.

They did encounter trouble when the Russian Empire ceased to exist and was replaced by the Communists.

[Neto]

Does this lead into a discussion of federal ID cards?

If so, I think that having EVERYONE'S fingerprints in a federal data base should help identify criminals who are guilty of a first offense. But I realize that there are other factors.

They actually already are. When someone is booked they generally are fingerprinted. This is mostly done for purposes of identification though.

1.) I wonder if the government would be satisfied with just fingerprints. Next would be DNA samples.

This is also already done except doing so is expensive so it is not universal.

So far so good, at least for law-abiding legal residents.
However, there is another thing that comes to mind -
2.) Federal over-reach in an event such as that it become illegal to be involved in Christian belief and practice.

Yes. This raises very tough questions. We can be glad we don’t have to face them… yet. Covid got close, but the government (via the courts) stopped and turned away from that.

(We may tend to think that this cannot and will not ever happen in this country. But while they were not identified in this manner, it happened to my people after the fall of the Russian Empire. Something like this, in terms of efforts to suppress faith, IS also happening in some other countries, right now. I'm not trying to scare anyone - just to be watchful, and ready.)

Well, it didn’t happen in the Russian Empire. Those who stayed in Russia did fine and ultimately conscription was a non-issue.

They did encounter trouble when the Russian Empire ceased to exist and was replaced by the Communists.

Your last sentence reflects the time period I had in mind. Not actually immediately after the fall of the Empire, but in the years and decades that followed. (In respect to how things were in the Russian Empire itself, it WAS against the law to baptize a convert out of the Russian Church, and there are stories about Russian employees became Christians, and the pastor who baptized them being beaten and imprisoned. They didn't care if you baptized a Jewish convert, but 'proselytization'' of Russian citizens was a different matter. In the case that most stands out in my mind, a young woman who was working as a maid for a Mennonite estate holder became interested, converted, and asked to be baptized. Her father found out, and beat her until she told who had baptized her, and was forced to recant. He reported the Mennonite pastor to the Russian authorities, and he - the pastor - was beaten, prosecuted, and put in jail.)

EDIT:
Oh, about the fingerprinting - I was talking about doing everyone, not just criminals or others who are 'processed' by the police for a suspicion of having committed a crime. Our fingerprints are in the system in Brazil. Everyone's are. But unless they've done it since we were there, this is all just paper copies, it isn't digitalized, which would be required for it to be effective as a way to solve crimes.