The Theological Crisis of Zionism: Blasphemy, Supremacism, and the West

[ohio jones]

And it's not just John Hagee; many dispensationalist pastors hold similar positions, such as Pat Robertson, Reinhold Niebhur, and James Parkes.

I'm pretty sure those last three no longer hold that position.

[JohnH]

There are pastors who literally claim that Jews will be saved solely because of their ethnicity, which contradicts the entire New Testament. I truly don't understand how there are people who call themselves Christians and can state such blasphemies without any shame.

Just look what pastor John Hagee affirms, Not only does he believe that Jews will be saved without accepting Christ into their hearts, but he also discourages and criticizes those who preach the gospel to Jews. I'm truly speechless at what these dispensationalist pastors are doing.

This is current Catholic dogma according to Nostra Aetate, yet Catholics are not dispensationalist at all. I would have a hard time saying it's the fault of dispensationalism, then, and instead is just a modern-day phenomenon that theologically diverse groups engage in.

[JayP]

As usual.John is incorrect. Nostra Aetate is not dogma.
Which is irrelevant IMHO to the thread, but so was John bringing it up

[JohnH]

As usual.John is incorrect. Nostra Aetate is not dogma.
Which is irrelevant IMHO to the thread, but so was John bringing it up

Pardon me if I didn't use some obscure technical Catholic term correctly... but is Nostra Aetate the official teaching of the Catholic church or not?

[MattY]

I am eager to hear as well, as I am a staunch anti-dispensationalist, but was unaware it hit such levels of heresy. Perhaps it is referring to some dispensationalists who view "multiple pathways" to God without having to have faith in Jesus, such as some odd exception for denizens of Israel?

I suspect that that is what he is referring to. My understanding is that there is a note in the Scofield Reference Bible which could be taken to indicate such, but that it is tenuous to claim that that is actually what it meant. John Hagee may have said similar things.

For whatever it's worth, I would not write what Thomas_muntzer did. I view non-dispensationalists claiming "Dispensationalism denies Christ as the path to God" similarly to how I view Dispensationalists insinuating that if you don't believe in Dispensationalism you must not believe in Creation or believe the Bible, etc. Needlessly over-the-top accusations.

Dispensationalism is merely the gateway to dual covenant theology, which is already openly a false teaching and one of the worst

And it's not just John Hagee; many dispensationalist pastors hold similar positions, such as Pat Robertson, Reinhold Niebhur, and James Parkes.

More bogus claims.

Neither Parkes nor Niebhur were dispensationalist; both were too liberal for that (Niebhur was Barthian and neo-orthodox, far too liberal for dispensationalism, although to be fair he rejected true liberal "Christianity"). And, while I have no desire to defend Pat Robertson, he did support efforts to evangelize Jews, like Jews for Jesus.

Basically you have only have Hagee to back your claims. And he is a weird pop-dispensational+Pentecostal+prosperity-teaching nut. He is not representative of most dispensationalists, whether of a popular or scholarly bent. You need to read Michael Vlach or Darrell Bock - or at least Thomas Ice - for a better representation of actual dispensationalism.

In the real world, dominionism is a bigger problem today. This can come in the form of Reformed reconstructionism (think Doug Wilson) or Pentecostal Kingdom Now theology (a.k.a. 7 Mountains Dominionism); either way, that's a whole different animal.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... tionalism/

(This is written by an antidispensationalist):

Hagee’s influences allow him to be an American bridge with a global Christian Zionist network that’s overwhelmingly Pentecostal, prosperity-oriented (focusing especially on Gen. 12:3), and antidispensational in key parts of its theology. Much of international Christian Zionism today, as hard as it is to imagine from a U.S. perspective, is substantively and rhetorically opposed to the doctrine.

White, for her part, is closer to a Dominionist position, calling for Christians to assume authority in society and culture. In political circles, this vantage—and that of global pentecostal and charismatic “network” Christianity more broadly—aligns more with conservative Reformed postmillennialism than with dispensationalists and today supplies much of the energy organizing evangelicals politically.

[Heirbyadoption]

As usual.John is incorrect. Nostra Aetate is not dogma. Which is irrelevant IMHO to the thread, but so was John bringing it up

First it was Max, then it was Boot. Jay, have you ever heard of Pavlov's bell?

More bogus claims.

Neither Parkes nor Niebhur were dispensationalist; both were too liberal for that (Niebhur was Barthian and neo-orthodox, far too liberal for dispensationalism, although to be fair he rejected true liberal "Christianity"). And, while I have no desire to defend Pat Robertson, he did support efforts to evangelize Jews, like Jews for Jesus.

Basically you have only have Hagee to back your claims. And he is a weird pop-dispensational+Pentecostal+prosperity-teaching nut. He is not representative of most dispensationalists, whether of a popular or scholarly bent. You need to read Michael Vlach or Darrell Bock - or at least Thomas Ice - for a better representation of actual dispensationalism.

In the real world, dominionism is a bigger problem today. This can come in the form of Reformed reconstructionism (think Doug Wilson) or Pentecostal Kingdom Now theology (a.k.a. 7 Mountains Dominionism); either way, that's a whole different animal.

Thank you for beating me to that, Matt. There seems to be an ongoing generalized caricturizing of Dispensationalists on here almost to the level that Conservative Mennonites tend to demonize anything labeled "pietist"...

[barnhart]

Heir, several years ago it seemed there was a burst of evangelicals traveling to Israel to host/participate in joint worship services with orthodox Jews and create well produced videos. Do you know anything about the theology of these groups?

[JohnH]

Heir, several years ago it seemed there was a burst of evangelicals traveling to Israel to host/participate in joint worship services with orthodox Jews and create well produced videos. Do you know anything about the theology of these groups?

As far as I know, these shindigs have not ceased, although there were some temporary interruptions in 2020 and 2023 for certain significant events. I get regular mailings about upcoming trips because, apparently, they think I'm a good donor / mark.

It does seem the "Amish" groups (that were actually entirely evangelical in their orientation) that went over there have calmed down. Fads come and go in Anabaptist circles.

[Nomad]

Heir, several years ago it seemed there was a burst of evangelicals traveling to Israel to host/participate in joint worship services with orthodox Jews and create well produced videos. Do you know anything about the theology of these groups?

Equally, if not more disturbing, is when men like Gary Burge, Stephen Sizer, and Naim Ateek preach "Palestinian liberation theology" and pal around with known Muslim terrorist, like Yasser Arafat, at Christian-Muslims united conferences against Zionism.

I dont know of many Christians who worshiped with Orthodox Jews, though it wouldn't surprise me if it has happened...they would have to be pretty liberal Orthodox Jews to associate with anyone who would worship Jesus. I think Hagee's influence has decreased...and I know the more scholarly Dispensationalist would reject his teaching (Michael Vlach, Darrell Boch, Larry Pettigrew, Barry Horner, etc...).

[barnhart]

That doesn't sound good either.