The Theological Crisis of Zionism: Blasphemy, Supremacism, and the West

[barnhart]

There are some who still categorically reject national Israel, although I think they are growing quieter.

[Neto]

There are some who still categorically reject national Israel, although I think they are growing quieter.

Obviously I wasn't around when the secular Israeli state was formed (in 1948), but by sometime in the mid to late 70's I had concluded that this current nation of Israel is not the one which appears to be spoken of in Biblical prophecy. (So far, I have not changed my mind on that, but I'm watching. Partly because if I'm still living on earth when it happens, I would like to go to Jerusalem and see and hear the two witnesses. I also suspect that I will not need to learn Hebrew in order to understand what they are saying.)

[barnhart]

I think of Zionism similarly to Manifest Destiny in that they both utilize identity, race and religion to add motivation, ethical lense and a unifying force to program of conquest. I try to view them from a distance and not get more involved than I already am by being born into the system. I don't accept a theological justification for either one and I hold them both to the obligation to love neighbors as yourself.

[MattY]

[blah blah blah]

1. Before 1948, the state of Israel did not exist, and the Christian West was doing just fine.

2. It is precisely the continuous and pointless wars and interventions in which the West has become embroiled since then to create, maintain, and expand the modern state of Israel that have caused the mass displacements and refugee crises that end up in Europe and America. In other words, it is the cause of our problems, not the "bastion" of our values.

This guy has everything backward; but worse than him are all those so-called "Christian Zionists": without a doubt, they have a different gospel, serve a different Christ, and fight for a false chosen people. Beware: for these blasphemers, they are willing to kill anyone and destroy entire peoples

Of course the Jews don't believe in Jesus and don't use Christian terminology in ways that we approve of. That's hardly news worth getting outraged over and certainly shouldn't be a reason to start blaming them for everything.

Seems like you have some things backwards. "Continuous and pointless wars and interventions" since 1948 which were a)somehow the Jews' fault and b)worse than before 1948, by implication? First of all, it seems you've forgotten a couple world wars before 1948 that were far worse than anything that's happened since then. Second of all, the idea that the West since 1948 has been beset by constant wars goes against the data and is a myopic modern view, unaware of its privilege. See The "Long Peace" also sometimes called the Pax Americana, which is "a term for the unprecedented historical period of relative global stability following the end of World War II in 1945 to the present day...Though civil wars and lesser military conflicts have occurred, there has been a continued absence of direct conflict between any of the largest economies by gross domestic product; instead, wealthier countries have fought limited small-scale regional conflicts with poorer countries. Conflicts involving smaller economies have also gradually tapered off. Overall, the number of international wars decreased from a rate of six per year in the 1950s to one per year in the 2000s, and the number of fatalities decreased from 240 reported deaths per million to less than 10 reported deaths per million." Third, none of the interventions and wars the US has fought since 1948 have been caused by Jews; instead, they've been caused by the expansion of communism and Islamic terrorism. (And of course they were caused by certain decisions, sometimes naive and erroneous, that the US made in response to those things - particularly in Vietnam and Iraq. But the point is, none of the wars were caused by Israel). The Russia/Ukraine war suggests a worrying trend - the first war in Europe for quite a while and perhaps the potential breakdown of the Long Peace - but it again has nothing to do with Israel and can be laid squarely at the feet of Putin's longing for the bygone days of Soviet power. In sum, your post has no basis in reality; it really is right along the lines of the medieval peasants blaming Jews for the Black Death and all sorts of other medieval hardships; it would fit in quite well.

[barnhart]

MattY's post reminded me to re-examine my post for anti- semitism. I would hasten to add I don't reject Jews living in Israel nor the state of Israel anymore than I reject the existence of the US and me living in it.

Jewish people have always lived there and have deep historical roots there. I would have hoped there would have been a way for them to live there without throwing out the Palestinians the same as I wish the euro-colonists could have coexisted peacefully with the people already in America.

[JohnH]

MattY's post reminded me to re-examine my post for anti- semitism. I would hasten to add I don't reject Jews living in Israel nor the state of Israel anymore than I reject the existence of the US and me living in it.

Jewish people have always lived there and have deep historical roots there. I would have hoped there would have been a way for them to live there without throwing out the Palestinians the same as I wish the euro-colonists could have coexisted peacefully with the people already in America.

History teaches us that two different people groups rarely like to occupy the same space. The only way it really ever works is if the two "merge" and each give up their former identities and exchange it for one new one.

[JimFoxvog]

History teaches us that two different people groups rarely like to occupy the same space. The only way it really ever works is if the two "merge" and each give up their former identities and exchange it for one new one.

I don't know if this is true, but it sure is a good motive for evangelism.

When our identity is in Christ, we have one nation--even better--one family in Christ. I have more in common with a Christian Australian aborigine than I do with an atheist born in the same hospital in Washington DC that I was born in and with whom I agree politically.

[JohnH]

I don't know if this is true, but it sure is a good motive for evangelism.

When our identity is in Christ, we have one nation--even better--one family in Christ. I have more in common with a Christian Australian aborigine than I do with an atheist born in the same hospital in Washington DC that I was born in and with whom I agree politically.

Right. However, we can't expect entire nations to be Christians - that has already been tried and obviously does not work. A given country, nation, government, etc. cannot be based around forcing everyone in it to be a Christian.

In addition, when we did have fully Christian governments and lands, they still often found themselves at odds with one another.

[Neto]

History teaches us that two different people groups rarely like to occupy the same space. The only way it really ever works is if the two "merge" and each give up their former identities and exchange it for one new one.

I don't know if this is true, but it sure is a good motive for evangelism.

When our identity is in Christ, we have one nation--even better--one family in Christ. I have more in common with a Christian Australian aborigine than I do with an atheist born in the same hospital in Washington DC that I was born in and with whom I agree politically.

Right. However, we can't expect entire nations to be Christians - that has already been tried and obviously does not work. A given country, nation, government, etc. cannot be based around forcing everyone in it to be a Christian.

In addition, when we did have fully Christian governments and lands, they still often found themselves at odds with one another.

I suspect that it works much better (or, that this goal is much more attainable) when the two people groups are (mere) ethnic groups, perhaps even both minority groups. (But politics appears to me to be a mostly destructive force.)

[JohnH]

I suspect that it works much better (or, that this goal is much more attainable) when the two people groups are (mere) ethnic groups, perhaps even both minority groups. (But politics appears to me to be a mostly destructive force.)

Well, some group will be the majority. Diversity + proximity tends to equal war. I don’t like war.

Realistically, Christians with similar doctrine and practice are effectively an ethno-religious group.