Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
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Bootstrap
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Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 8:03 am
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Jan 25, 2026 7:53 pm Deporting violent criminals is a good idea. But no reliable source I can find says that's what they are doing.
Is it somehow wrong or bad if ICE deports people who are simply illegal aliens who entered without inspection, or foreigners who overstay their visas?

I want to clearly understand what your position here is.
Moving this out of "Civil War" and into a thread about what good looks like.

I don’t think it’s wrong to deport people who entered without inspection or overstayed visas. Every country has immigration laws, and they need to be enforced in some way. How we enforce those laws is important. Currently, I see a lack of due process, underfunded courts, and aggressive enforcement that treats everyone as a threat. What I see looks like performative cruelty, performative power, done for show. Deportation shouldn’t be chaotic, punitive, or violent. It should be lawful, careful, and accountable.

To me, a good system looks like this:
  • We accept a reasonable share of the world's refugees and screen them carefully
  • The rules are clear and applied consistently
  • Immigration courts are fully funded so people get timely, fair hearings
  • Legal status isn’t taken away arbitrarily or for political reasons
  • Removals, when they happen, are humane, keep families together when possible, and help people plan where they’ll go
What do the rest of you think?
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by JohnH »

First off, none of us are absolute dictators who can just impose our will on a country, nor are any of us founding a new country.

But there is another option you didn't list: perhaps a country, through the democratic process, decides it just doesn't want any more immigrants for a while. No more "nonimmigrant" visas like H1-B (that mysteriously turn into permanent residency eventually), no more "diversity lotteries", no more "temporary protected status" that lasts decades and results in lawsuits to keep it when the "temporary" status is taken away.

Is that an acceptable choice?
To me, a good system looks like this:
We accept a reasonable share of the world's refugees and screen them carefully
I would be fine with taking refugees from Mexico and Canada. There has, so far, not been a reason for any refugees to come from those places.

I do not see why the U.S. needs to somehow accept refugees from around the globe when there are other safe countries such refugees are closer to.
The rules are clear and applied consistently
I believe this is how it currently works?
Immigration courts are fully funded so people get timely, fair hearings
Immigration courts are fully funded, and are funded primarily independently via user fees.

It can often to be an applicant's benefit for a hearing to take a very long time, such as appealing an order of removal for someone who entered on TPS, for example, or appealing a denied asylum claim. I would agree it would be better if such hearings were heard quickly, but you should acknowledge that a common legal strategy is to try to stretch it out as long as possible since that makes it easier to stay in the U.S. a lot longer and possibly secure some other way to stay.
Legal status isn’t taken away arbitrarily or for political reasons
I am not aware of that happening either.
Removals, when they happen, are humane,
The best way for that to happen is for people who enter without inspection or who overstay to leave voluntarily.
keep families together when possible,
Yes. Families can be deported together, for example. Having a "U.S. citizen child" does not grant a visa to the parents, who have a "U.S. citizen child" merely because they gave birth in America. They should be repatriated together, but do consider that DHS often has a difficult job to do due to so many children born out of wedlock.
and help people plan where they’ll go
I don't think it's the U.S. government's responsibility to help other people with their travel plans. Perhaps they can plan for their own where they'll go. After all, they figured out how to enter the U.S. - they can probably figure out how to enter to a place that they have a legal right to reside.
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ohio jones
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by ohio jones »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 12:38 pm I would be fine with taking refugees from Mexico and Canada. There has, so far, not been a reason for any refugees to come from those places.

I do not see why the U.S. needs to somehow accept refugees from around the globe when there are other safe countries such refugees are closer to.
What if there are no such countries, or those countries refuse the refugees? I take it you would have turned away the MS St. Louis.
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JohnH
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by JohnH »

ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 12:58 pm What if there are no such countries, or those countries refuse the refugees? I take it you would have turned away the MS St. Louis.
Well, so once boat arrivals are accepted, you get every rubber raft and dinghy that human traffickers can find to drop "refugees" off on your shores (that they've typically charged a lot for the journey, along with empty promises of a prosperous life in the UK or Australia or whatever they're headed to). So the answer would be to handle it on a case-by-case basis for bona fide refugees.

What doesn't make sense are "refugees" who periodically take vacations back to their home country. I'm fine with helping bona fide refugees, but America's burden should primarily be Canadian and Mexican refugees, since that's with whom we have a border.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by JimFoxvog »

What does good look like? Let's check the Bible.
foreigner.jpg
Treat foreigners as citizens. If they wish to become citizens, provide a simple path to citizenship. Do not deport anyone who does not want to be deported. If authorities believe they have broken the law, then still treat them as citizens--give them a fair trial.

Love them as you love yourself. Do not mistreat them. Feed the hungry, house the homeless, treat the sick. Always use the Golden Rule and treat them as you would like to be treated.

Do we expect governments to act godly? Not really. But we can use our influence to move them in a more godly direction.
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Soloist
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by Soloist »

Oil and water do not mix.

Following the Kingdom of God results in things contrary or hostile to the ways of the world and vice versa.
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JohnH
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by JohnH »

JimFoxvog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 3:53 pm What does good look like? Let's check the Bible.
foreigner.jpg

Treat foreigners as citizens. If they wish to become citizens, provide a simple path to citizenship.
Are you proposing a theocracy? If you say "foreigners" and "citizens" are the same thing, then what really happens is a new word will be invented for what "citizen" actually is.

For example, do you believe in democracy? Who should vote in elections? Anyone who shows up?

What about mail-in voting, then? Would voter ID be required?

How would you prevent me from building an advanced AI that submits votes on behalf of all kinds of people (since you have already declared all foreigners to be citizens) and submits millions of mail-in votes?
Do not deport anyone who does not want to be deported. If authorities believe they have broken the law, then still treat them as citizens--give them a fair trial.
Okay, so what you are saying is to have absolutely no borders or migration controls whatsoever?
Love them as you love yourself. Do not mistreat them. Feed the hungry, house the homeless, treat the sick. Always use the Golden Rule and treat them as you would like to be treated.
Such an imperative is impossible for governments to do.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 4:44 pm Oil and water do not mix.

Following the Kingdom of God results in things contrary or hostile to the ways of the world and vice versa.
True. And yet ... the Kingdom does have an influence on the world. Which is actually why the United States has accepted refugees since World War II. We learned our lesson after sending Jews back to Nazi Germany.

As Christians, I do think we should speak out.
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
Bootstrap
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 2:12 pm
ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 12:58 pm What if there are no such countries, or those countries refuse the refugees? I take it you would have turned away the MS St. Louis.
Well, so once boat arrivals are accepted, you get every rubber raft and dinghy that human traffickers can find to drop "refugees" off on your shores (that they've typically charged a lot for the journey, along with empty promises of a prosperous life in the UK or Australia or whatever they're headed to). So the answer would be to handle it on a case-by-case basis for bona fide refugees.

What doesn't make sense are "refugees" who periodically take vacations back to their home country. I'm fine with helping bona fide refugees, but America's burden should primarily be Canadian and Mexican refugees, since that's with whom we have a border.
Since World War II, the international refugee system has been built around two basic commitments:

(1) screening refugees to ensure they are genuinely displaced and not a danger, and
(2) negotiating with other nations so that responsibility is shared rather than borne by one country alone.

This is the framework you are criticizing when you talk about abuse, trafficking, and uncontrolled arrivals, but it’s specifically designed to address those concerns. Christian advocacy was a major driver in setting up these systems. Church leaders and Christian NGOs were some of the loudest advocates for this after the Holocaust, precisely because Christians felt guilt over turning Jews back to Nazi Germany.

I think the New Testament and Old Testament command God’s people to love and protect the stranger. Is there a better way to do that than the framework you are criticizing?
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Refugees and Immigration: What does good look like?

Post by JimFoxvog »

Thanks for the questions, JohnH. I appreciate the thought experiment.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 5:28 pm
JimFoxvog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 3:53 pm What does good look like? Let's check the Bible.

Treat foreigners as citizens. If they wish to become citizens, provide a simple path to citizenship.
Are you proposing a theocracy? If you say "foreigners" and "citizens" are the same thing, then what really happens is a new word will be invented for what "citizen" actually is.
I am proposing that anyone can become a citizen following a simple procedure. That would be what a citizen actually is. We could retain the idea of "natural born citizen" for the Presidency.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 5:28 pm For example, do you believe in democracy? Who should vote in elections? Anyone who shows up?
Citizens.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 5:28 pm What about mail-in voting, then? Would voter ID be required?
How about registered voters get mail-in ballots, but, as is the current law, that's up to the states.

Voter ID seems to be unnecessary. Just have people sign that they are the registered voter they claim to be, with an appropriate penalty for a false affidavit.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 5:28 pm How would you prevent me from building an advanced AI that submits votes on behalf of all kinds of people (since you have already declared all foreigners to be citizens) and submits millions of mail-in votes?
I'll leave that for the AI experts to work on.
Do not deport anyone who does not want to be deported. If authorities believe they have broken the law, then still treat them as citizens--give them a fair trial.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 5:28 pm Okay, so what you are saying is to have absolutely no borders or migration controls whatsoever?
I would suggest border inspections to stop human trafficking or the import of banned items.
Love them as you love yourself. Do not mistreat them. Feed the hungry, house the homeless, treat the sick. Always use the Golden Rule and treat them as you would like to be treated.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 26, 2026 5:28 pm Such an imperative is impossible for governments to do.
True. That would be the imperative for us Christians. We just try to help our government be as moral as possible.

Things like "Do not mistreat them, feed the hungry, house the homeless, treat the sick." are things we could do by means of our government.
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