Civil War-again?

[GaryK]

Regarding another Civil War: No, we are not in a war. But girding up for it and talking as though we are in such a war is a path to more violence and hatred and should be antithetical to a Christian view of politics and of people with different opinions than you. Talking about politics as the moral equivalent of war has been a pernicious and anti-democratic aspect of progressivism for a long time in the 20th and 21st centuries (think "War on Poverty" and some aspects of New Deal programs); it fuels an illiberal understanding of the role of the state. But it was also a feature of fascism in the 20th century, which was all about militaristic mobilization of society, and perhaps not coincidentally, of the way MAGA looks at things now. Political arguments using "moral equivalent of war" type of logic are an attempt to short-circuit democratic debate by bullying people into compliance with a collective enterprise, whether they agree with it or not. There is an enemy, ICE is going up against them, it's a Battle Royale. Etc.

Very well said.

It's hard to find your rational self when everything but everything is so dialed up to 11 every single day.

That is true if one allows him/herself to be pulled into the drama.

[JohnH]

Of course citizens are not subject to removal. However, a wrongful deportation isn't a punishment - it's a civil remedy which is easily remedied by simply re-entering the United States.

Right. Unless you've actually done this, I don't think it's as easy or simple as that. Being deposited in another country without money or a passport or, in this day and age, a phone, introduces a few barriers. Just getting into the embassy (which may be in another city) for a temporary or replacement passport usually requires an online appointment, for starters.

Have any U.S. citizens actually been deported?

You’d think there’d be at least one example if it were such a problem.

[ohio jones]

Have any U.S. citizens actually been deported?

You’d think there’d be at least one example if it were such a problem.

Googling that question brings up more than one example. There's even a Wikipedia page.

[JohnH]

Have any U.S. citizens actually been deported?

You’d think there’d be at least one example if it were such a problem.

Googling that question brings up more than one example. There's even a Wikipedia page.

That list contained:

- Children such as a 2 year old who were not “deported” but were just kept with (for example) their mother. Families should be kept together.

- A person born overseas who might or might not have had a claim to US citizenship based on his father eventually naturalising. It is unclear if this person ever attempted to actually perform the steps to obtain his own citizenship.

- One that appears to be a genuine error - from back in the 1990s.

So one real case in the 1990s. That’s a stunningly good track record.

[ohio jones]

Have any U.S. citizens actually been deported?

You’d think there’d be at least one example if it were such a problem.

Googling that question brings up more than one example. There's even a Wikipedia page.

That list contained:

- Children such as a 2 year old who were not “deported” but were just kept with (for example) their mother. Families should be kept together.

- A person born overseas who might or might not have had a claim to US citizenship based on his father eventually naturalising. It is unclear if this person ever attempted to actually perform the steps to obtain his own citizenship.

- One that appears to be a genuine error - from back in the 1990s.

So one real case in the 1990s. That’s a stunningly good track record.

You're skipping over at least one case where the family was in fact not kept together.

There's also the GAO report that identified up to 70 citizen removals during the first Trump administration.

[JohnH]

I mean. If the father and mother are not married/together, it seems like a rather high expectation for the U.S. government to somehow mend such a situation and create family togetherness.

Overall, any complaints about a 2 year old “US citizen” being born to a deportee (who arrived more than 2 years ago, and managed to give birth in the U.S., which is the only reason her child is a “citizen”) strike me as dishonest. The two options are the family being deported together, or the family being separated. Giving birth in U.S. soil is not an automatic grant of permanent residency.

[JimFoxvog]

Giving birth in U.S. soil is not an automatic grant of permanent residency.

Giving birth on U.S. soil (except for diplomats) is an automatic grant of citizenship according to the US Constitution. Does not being a citizen grant one permanent residency?

[Valerie]

Giving birth in U.S. soil is not an automatic grant of permanent residency.

Giving birth on U.S. soil (except for diplomats) is an automatic grant of citizenship according to the US Constitution. Does not being a citizen grant one permanent residency?

So what was happening was many illegals entered to then have babies for that purpose. That was NOT supposed to be how it worked so I thought they were changing that.
I think it’s wrong to encourage lawlessness.

[JimFoxvog]

I think it’s wrong to encourage lawlessness.

So Trump was wrong in pardoning those who attacked the Capitol and law enforcement officers on January 6, 2021?

So anyone who supports ICE, which violates the law with impunity, is wrong?

I guess this means anyone who voted for a felon for President was very wrong. Or anyone who defends him?

[Valerie]

I think it’s wrong to encourage lawlessness.

So Trump was wrong in pardoning those who attacked the Capitol and law enforcement officers on January 6, 2021?

So anyone who supports ICE, which violates the law with impunity, is wrong?

I guess this means anyone who voted for a felon for President was very wrong. Or anyone who defends him?

I disagree with the conclusions you have drawn.
And I’ve seen numerous pardons by presidents through my lifetime, that’s also legal- I question why we do that but there’s no comparison. I realize the Left actually supports lawlessness in many many ways.