Civil War-again?

[mike]

See THAT is the problem. False accusations. Pulling the “race card” and that sort of rhetoric is getting very tiresome.

What do you consider a "false accusation"?

When Minnesota police chiefs testify that their off-duty officers are being stopped by ICE, but only those who don't look "white", maybe we should consider that there actually is racial profiling going on.

Here's a very obvious false accusation. Drudge's headline right now is "Ice Detains 5-year Old" and this accusation is being widely reported in the media and by politicians. But the DHS and ICE are saying the child was abandoned by an illegal alien and that they held the child until the parent was apprehended.



Democrats are overplaying their hand when they make false accusations like this, support crowds of activists entering churches and disrupting services, and such things.

[QuietlyListening]

Here's a very obvious false accusation. Drudge's headline right now is "Ice Detains 5-year Old" and this accusation is being widely reported in the media and by politicians. But the DHS and ICE are saying the child was abandoned by an illegal alien and that they held the child until the parent was apprehended. Democrats are overplaying their hand when they make false accusations like this, support crowds of activists entering churches and disrupting services, and such things.
0 x

At this point who do you believe? ICE says one thing and news reports say they talked with teachers who confirm the child was with his father.

[Bootstrap]

Here's a very obvious false accusation. Drudge's headline right now is "Ice Detains 5-year Old" and this accusation is being widely reported in the media and by politicians. But the DHS and ICE are saying the child was abandoned by an illegal alien and that they held the child until the parent was apprehended.

Its only "obviously false" if DHS and ICE are obviously telling the truth.

According to AP reports, ICE agents approached Conejo Arias at his home while he and his 5-year-old son, Liam Conejo Ramos, were returning from preschool. That's not exactly "abandoning" the child. And the AP identifies Conejo Arias as the boy's father:

https://apnews.com/article/immigration- ... f5bcc1f112

According to local officials and school authorities, ICE allegedly took the boy from a running car and later used him to knock on the family’s front door to check whether others were inside. That's using the child as “bait” to help them arrest family members.

This is precisely the kind of thing that courts should be examining. If DHS and ICE are lying to us and have no meaningful accountability, it's scary. Courts can determine who is telling the truth.

[mike]

Here's a very obvious false accusation. Drudge's headline right now is "Ice Detains 5-year Old" and this accusation is being widely reported in the media and by politicians. But the DHS and ICE are saying the child was abandoned by an illegal alien and that they held the child until the parent was apprehended. Democrats are overplaying their hand when they make false accusations like this, support crowds of activists entering churches and disrupting services, and such things.
0 x

At this point who do you believe? ICE says one thing and news reports say they talked with teachers who confirm the child was with his father.

I don't believe one side over the other. But it is certainly worth pointing out that the 'child apprehension' headline is strongly disputed.

[Bootstrap]

Anyone here following the George Retes case?

US citizen, Iraq vet, jailed for 3 days, pepper sprayed, not allowed to contact a lawyer or take a shower ... never informed what the charges against him were. It would be easy to post a bunch of cases like this.

[JimFoxvog]

Here's a very obvious false accusation. Drudge's headline right now is "Ice Detains 5-year Old" and this accusation is being widely reported in the media and by politicians. But the DHS and ICE are saying the child was abandoned by an illegal alien and that they held the child until the parent was apprehended.

I haven't looked into this one. DHS and ICE statements can't be trusted. If it is false, they should withdraw it immediately.

I am regularly responding to the anti-Trump folks when they post false or misleading things, saying that our side needs to be the one that represents truth, that people can trust.

[mike]

Here's a very obvious false accusation. Drudge's headline right now is "Ice Detains 5-year Old" and this accusation is being widely reported in the media and by politicians. But the DHS and ICE are saying the child was abandoned by an illegal alien and that they held the child until the parent was apprehended.

I haven't looked into this one. DHS and ICE statements can't be trusted. If it is false, they should withdraw it immediately.

I am regularly responding to the anti-Trump folks when they post false or misleading things, saying that our side needs to be the one that represents truth, that people can trust.

Because I have no way of knowing which side is right, I should have said 'possible false accusation' rather than 'obvious false accusation.' And I have many, many more important things to do than to research cases like this. It is very interesting to me to see how people switch trust in government on and off depending on their political views. It's hard to keep up.

[JohnH]

Actually, that’s exactly why you need immigration judges. If someone doesn’t already have a final removal order, a judge is the only way to get one legally. Enforcement agents can’t create removal orders on their own.

People who enter illegally are subject to summary removal. That is the current law.

Someone who overstays does need a removal order, but they can be issued administratively. (When you say "judge" I assume you mean the executive branch, because the law does not require an Article III judge to issue removal orders for people who overstay.)

Many people who are being picked up do not have final removal orders. In fact, there are documented cases of citizens and lawful permanent residents being arrested or detained.

Of course citizens are not subject to removal. However, a wrongful deportation isn't a punishment - it's a civil remedy which is easily remedied by simply re-entering the United States.

So if you want to speed up deportation legally, what you need is judges, hearings, and final orders.

No, all that is needed is identification of those who have entered illegally who are subject to summary removal, and then the executive branch to issue removal orders for visa overstays. Those happen via "administrative judges", but that really just means the executive branch. There is not necessarily even a right to a hearing for someone subject to removal in all cases.

Bypassing that with a paramilitary force and "shock and awe" is disregard for the rule of law and the constitution. And playing paramilitary "shock and awe" in American neighborhoods ... that's a scary step to take.

It's normal to have police officers who enforce the law, including federal laws that allow for summary removal and for enforcement of removal orders for overstays.

[JimFoxvog]

Because I have no way of knowing which side is right, I should have said 'possible false accusation' rather than 'obvious false accusation.' And I have many, many more important things to do than to research cases like this. It is very interesting to me to see how people switch trust in government on and off depending on their political views. It's hard to keep up.

I appreciate this.

Different governments have different levels of trustworthiness. When the one running it is the person with the most documented lies, the trust level goes down. Carter was quite honest, Obama probably a little less, and Biden even less. We all know of some of Clinton's "misstatements". Most of the Republican leaders, with the possible exception of Eisenhower, ranked even lower. Trying to verify statements independently is difficult, but often called for. That was the function of a free press, which has now been greatly suppressed.

[Bootstrap]

Actually, that’s exactly why you need immigration judges. If someone doesn’t already have a final removal order, a judge is the only way to get one legally. Enforcement agents can’t create removal orders on their own.

People who enter illegally are subject to summary removal. That is the current law.

Someone who overstays does need a removal order, but they can be issued administratively. (When you say "judge" I assume you mean the executive branch, because the law does not require an Article III judge to issue removal orders for people who overstay.)

Only some people are subject to summary removal. For the rest, you need formal removal proceedings. (See 8 U.S.C. § 1225(b); American Immigration Council, Expedited Removal.)

When I say "immigration judges", I mean immigration judges. They are not Article III judges, they work for the executive branch. They are the noes who issue removal orders. If you want to legally deport large numbers of people, you need to fund the immigration courts and immigration judges. (See DOJ EOIR Policy Manual, ch. 1–4.)

These points really aren’t controversial; they’re just how the system is structured. At this point, though, we seem to be going in circles, so I’m going to step out of this particular disagreement with you (see #2 in my signature).