Civil War-again?

[Valerie]

I think that "reports" here has a similar meaning.

The witnesses need to be listened to, not deported. The alleged perpetrators should also be listened to. I oppose the death penalty.

The “witnesses” are other detainees. Not exactly reliable or unbiased.

Is there a reason you think people with lawful deportation orders shouldn’t be deported?

"We have arrested everyone who witnessed our crime; anyone who is arrested is an unreliable witness. Therefore, there are no reliable witnesses to our crimes. Therefore, we are innocent."

Literally all you need for the most absolutist authoritarian government to have free reign is for its citizens to accept this logic. It is a sad day for the free world when this is acceptable rhetoric.

If it were true that anyone detained by the police are automatically unreliable, there is literally nothing standing in the way of the state doing whatever they want. Just detain anyone who could reliably testify against you. Now you no longer have Rule of Law; you have the Law of the Rulers.

The rhetoric of worshiping dictatorships, right here on Mennonet.

What a blatantly false accusation.
No one here is worshipping any “man.”
Trump is not a dictator.
Sometimes hatred in our own hearts can make us not see clearly or maybe we are all “free enough” to listen to all sides, except the fact that MSM definitely lies, and that the American people (the left at least )seem to defend the criminals more than those trying to address the criminals. That’s where we’ve come.

[JimFoxvog]

If people are witnesses to a killing, they should be allowed to be witnesses at the trial.

. Are you presuming they won’t be? Why?

The report was that the witnesses were about to be deported. If they are deported, it might be difficult to bring them to the witness stand.

[JohnH]

"We have arrested everyone who witnessed our crime; anyone who is arrested is an unreliable witness. Therefore, there are no reliable witnesses to our crimes. Therefore, we are innocent."

Literally all you need for the most absolutist authoritarian government to have free reign is for its citizens to accept this logic. It is a sad day for the free world when this is acceptable rhetoric.

If it were true that anyone detained by the police are automatically unreliable, there is literally nothing standing in the way of the state doing whatever they want. Just detain anyone who could reliably testify against you. Now you no longer have Rule of Law; you have the Law of the Rulers.

The rhetoric of worshiping dictatorships, right here on Mennonet.

Deaths in prisons happen quite often. Who do you think the reliable witnesses are? This is not exactly some new feature of some "authoritarian" government.

[JohnH]

If people are witnesses to a killing, they should be allowed to be witnesses at the trial.

. Are you presuming they won’t be? Why?

The report was that the witnesses were about to be deported. If they are deported, it might be difficult to bring them to the witness stand.

The 5 officers who tried to save the man's life are also witnesses.

[JimFoxvog]

The 5 officers who tried to save the man's life are also witnesses.

Yes, they are witnesses. The question that needs to go before the jury is whether they tried to save the man's life, or whether they abused him and in doing so, took his life.

[JohnH]

The 5 officers who tried to save the man's life are also witnesses.

Yes, they are witnesses. The question that needs to go before the jury is whether they tried to save the man's life, or whether they abused him and in doing so, took his life.

I doubt this is even worthy of an indictment.

There was no investigation of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged suicide either. No officers were charged. I don't see how this is any different. The officials in charge of the prison said it's a suicide, and that's the end of it.

[Valerie]

The 5 officers who tried to save the man's life are also witnesses.

Yes, they are witnesses. The question that needs to go before the jury is whether they tried to save the man's life, or whether they abused him and in doing so, took his life.

I doubt this is even worthy of an indictment.

There was no investigation of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged suicide either. No officers were charged. I don't see how this is any different. The officials in charge of the prison said it's a suicide, and that's the end of it.

Was he or was he not trying to kill himself?
If they wanted him dead wouldn’t they have just let him kill himself?

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Was he or was he not trying to kill himself?
If they wanted him dead wouldn’t they have just let him kill himself?

Pretty sure that's exactly what happened. The guards conveniently fell asleep and the camera on his cell conveniently malfunctioned for a window of time where he was able to kill himself.

There should have been disciplinary actions for that level of negligence, at the very least.

[Valerie]

Was he or was he not trying to kill himself?
If they wanted him dead wouldn’t they have just let him kill himself?

Pretty sure that's exactly what happened. The guards conveniently fell asleep and the camera on his cell conveniently malfunctioned for a window of time where he was able to kill himself.

There should have been disciplinary actions for that level of negligence, at the very least.

So he wanted to die?

[JohnH]

My point is that we don't run prisons by trusting everything prisoners say over the guards and officials who run them.

For rather obvious reasons. Just like how a police officer's testimony in court is generally considered credible. There is not a presumption that government officials are lying, but rather the opposite.