Why do Swiss Anabaptists practice ethnic separatism from other Anabaptists?

[Southerner]

Part of the separation between Swiss/German and Dutch/Prussian/Russian streams can be traced to history and chronology. Swiss/German Anabaptists immigrated in the 18th and early 19th centuries. By the time the Dutch/Prussian/Russian Anabaptists started to arrive in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Swiss/German settlements in PA, VA, ON, OH, IN, etc. were well established in fairly large communities.

The new arrivals from Russia, many of whom were farmers, would not have been able to find sufficient farmland in already-settled places like Lancaster County. Due to the cultural and linguistic differences, as well as generous offers from government and the railroads to settle sparsely occupied land, the later immigrants ended up in places like Kansas and the Canadian prairie.

Ethnic integration would have been much more likely if both groups had arrived in North America around the same time.

I see slightly different origins, different histories, different immigration patterns... I guess I am surprised at how close they are, not how distant.

I am also surprised at the closeness. For instance, the Church of God in Christ Mennonite founder John Holdeman, a Swiss German travelled from Ohio to Kansas and preached to the Russian Mennonites and gained a large following.

[JohnH]

But I detracted from addressing the unfortunate overgeneralization of the OP by sharing my experiences of some of the similarities in your own chosen Russian Menno group when compared to the generalized situation of the OP, and for that, I do apologize.

Thanks.

To answer the OP question more directly - a possible implication in this thread is that Swiss Anabaptists deliberate practice ethnic separation from other Anabaptist.

I don't think it's deliberate - I think it's accidental and that some groups of people tend to work on ethnic separatism as a "default setting". For example, lots of people inside Swiss plain circles will describe a list of character qualities that intersects almost perfectly with Swiss cultural values (such as being on time for things), describe it as values that obviously Christians would have, and then express wonderment that outsiders just seem to have trouble adapting to these obviously Christian values. (Experience in the mission field can be very positive here - missionaries can learn that non-Swiss people can be Christians too, even if they never end up showing up "on time" for things per the Swiss definition of that.)

What ethnic separation there is, often seems to be more by default than an active attempt to do so, and is due in large part to cultural differences (food, stories, dress, shared memories, etc),

Yes, that's what I think happens. And then traits of their ethnic group get confused with traits of true-hearted Christians.

a sufficient pool of marriage candidates in their groups without having to branch farther,

Or perhaps even an insufficient pool, and just continuing the practice of marrying cousins anyway - even when horrific genetic diseases result.

maintaining a shared language (the platt/deutsch speakers, anyway) as a tool for culture-maintenance, etc, etc. Few of these things (outside of perhaps the Amish and some conservative Menno sects) are deliberate separatist efforts - the ethnic separatism listed in the OP seems more resultant from a lack of deliberately attempting to homogenize with others outside their group, and per the context of this thread, Russian Mennos and possibly Apostolics...

I would be fine if there were honest about that. (I have preferred the title of "Mennonite Church Directory" vs "Anabaptist Church Directory" since it at least acknowledges it's not intended to be comprehensive of all Anabaptists.)

To use a natural illustration, migrations typically are less likely to happen unless herds run out of food or water or are fleeing a threat. So maybe the simple answer (and I realize it doesn't fit perfectly because of the overgeneralization of the OP) is that many Swiss Anabaptist are ethnically separate from other Anabaptist because they don't deliberately attempt to integrate with them, not because they are trying to stay ethnically separate from them on purpose. There is also the valid thought of how far can a group reach out to integrate with other groups, a bit like the emotional reservoir of an individual who can only consistently connect with so many different people - I'm not sure where that line is for Swiss Anabaptists, particularly if we're going to speak of them as a whole- maybe it IS far out enough to start homogenizing their Swiss Anabaptist culture with Russian Menno brothers and sisters or the Apostolics, and their associated cultures and bloodlines, etc...

I think that if a group thinks itself to have some "better" form of Christianity than the rest of christendom, which plain Anabaptists as a rule certainly do, then it is obviously necessary to think about how to make sure you evangelise your "better" form beyond your ethnic boundaries.

One blessing I see in the Holdeman view of things is that there is obviously a duty to ensure the church can reach people besides plat, Penn. Dutch, or English-speaking populations. A while ago, a decision was made that church services should be held in local vernacular. I think this is a blessing and makes evangelism far easier, even if it can be uncomfortable.

Having said all that, I'd be interested to know what practical solution you might propose for Swiss Anabaptists to deliberately decrease the ethnic separation between them and other Anabaptists?

I actually don't know. I think it might be integral to Swiss people and something that's too hard for them to change, so in some ways I think it might just be better to acknowledge it exists and then accept that Swiss Brethren-style Anabaptism is an ethnic expression of Christian faith.

For what it's worth, a lot of Apostolic Christian Nazareans express things that way. They feel they work best reaching out to other Slavic, etc. people groups and are not sure it really works for them to try to reach others. I should add that they don't really have an OTC doctrine; they instead view their members as having made a commitment, but they don't view other Christians as somehow not saved or not going to heaven.

I think it's also worth nothing that German Baptists seem to have been quite successful at becoming one of the least "ethnic" plain Anabaptist groups out there, and the reasons and history of why that is may be worth discussing more.

[ohio jones]

(I have preferred the title of "Mennonite Church Directory" vs "Anabaptist Church Directory" since it at least acknowledges it's not intended to be comprehensive of all Anabaptists.)

Perhaps that would imply it's intended to be comprehensive of all Mennonites. I have yet to see, and suspect there might not be a need for, a directory that attempts to include everyone from OOM to MCUSA, whether or not that encompasses COGICM.

[Ernie]

I have yet to see, and suspect there might not be a need for, a directory that attempts to include everyone from OOM to MCUSA, whether or not that encompasses COGICM.

There was one such directory that included conservatives but not Old Orders. The Mennonite Yearbook, and it became extinct in 1997.

In 1997, MCUSA decided to stop listing all the non-MCUSA folks and rather merge their information with General Conference Mennonite Church and Conference of Mennonites in Canada.

Names for this directory evolved as follows.
1905 Mennonite Yearbook and Directory
1944 Mennonite Yearbook
1999 Mennonite Directory
2003 Mennonite Church USA Directory

I think it makes sense to have directories that publish information of people with similar beliefs and values.

For more details.
https://libraryguides.ambs.edu/digital_ ... _directory

[Neto]

If you get the BMA newsletters, watch for the Payden, OK congregation. It is my understanding that the Plautdietch members there are predominantly from the Kleine Gemeinde group. There are also Plautdietsch people that belong to some very conservative predominantly Swiss Brethren background congregations in places like Sebree, Kentucky. (I have done business with some of the Plautdietsch people there.) This kind of 'cross-over' makes perfect sense, due to the fact that the KG are probably the most 'plain' oriented Plautdietsch churches. That is, they find more like-mindedness in things like the type and degree of church guidelines. (The KG started over a concern for greater personal moral discipline during the period of time when the Mennonite church, the 'Gross Gemeinde, was probably at its lowest point spiritually. The KG approach was to form strict rules of conduct. The MB church, on the other hand, while starting later, also left the Gross Gemeinde during the same general era, but some decades later, and also out of the same desire - to see greater spiritual life encouraged and yes, even 'enforced' through excommunication. But the MB pursued a different type of method - to do more spiritual teaching and training, along with exercising excommunication when necessary, but without a prescribed 'dress code'.)

On a personal note, if I had not been seeking a more 'plain' and conservative church setting neither I nor my wife would have been interested in one another when we met at missionary training in Oklahoma.

I'm not sure what the original 'mix rate' was when the Gross Gemeinde people from the colonies in what is now Ukraine arrived in North America, and joined what was, or became, the General Conference Mennonites, but while I may be wrong in this detail, my understanding is that it represented people from both Swiss and Plautdietsch roots. Many of my own ancestors were, at least initially, a part of this group. The spiritual concern for our own people remained with the MB people when they also came over to North America, and 'mission churches' were started in predominantly Gross Gemeinde areas. It was through efforts like this that my ancestors became MBs. (Actually, the MBs had strongly opposed immigration to the USA, because they regarded this country as a nation of rebellion, due to the Revolutionary War, when the rule of the king of England was disregarded, and thus a nation doomed to destruction. So some MB ministers were actually sent over from Russia as missionaries to the GG Mennonite people. Congregations started, and eventually the North American MB conference was started.)

[ken_sylvania]

Holdemans and Apostolics don't claim to publish directories of all Anabaptist churches.

Why don’t they start? What is keeping them from it?

I can't speak for ACs, but overall, we don't feel it's our place to decide which churches should and should not be in a church directory/index since we aren't part of them and can't make the judgment whether they are a "worthy" church or not.

You don't say! I thought the premise of this thread was a complaint that some of these church directories include churches that JohnH has judged to be "not worthy" while also excluding churches that JohnH has judged "worthy".

[JohnH]

Why don’t they start? What is keeping them from it?

I can't speak for ACs, but overall, we don't feel it's our place to decide which churches should and should not be in a church directory/index since we aren't part of them and can't make the judgment whether they are a "worthy" church or not.

You don't say! I thought the premise of this thread was a complaint that some of these church directories include churches that JohnH has judged to be "not worthy" while also excluding churches that JohnH has judged "worthy".

I have not lodged any complaints with, for example, the Groffdale church directory, or the directory Hutterites will keep in a glovebox.

[seinetsodumm]

One of the less-stellar behaviours of Swiss background Anabaptists is their general exclusion of Russian Mennonites, Eastern European Apostolic Christians, Austrian Hutterites and so forth.

For example, churchindex.org is almost universally Swiss background. Russian Mennonites groups as a general rule are excluded. So are Apostolic Christians.

Something I often hear is that they aren’t “real” Anabaptists or “real” Mennonites, or even not good Christians. However, I don’t see the same stringent measures and condemnation placed in Swiss background groups that have engaged in sordid activity.

Upon further study, this seems to be an aspect of Swiss culture in general, particularly German-speaking Swiss culture. There is a strong air of ethnic seclusion and superiority. One should question why these traits followed them across the Atlantic and eventually became theologically embedded.

I’m not sure that the Holdemans are in a great position lecture is on the topic of Anabaptist exclusion or exclusivity. Same goes for the Apostolic Christians.

Last I checked the Swiss do not hold to the notion that they are the One True Church.

Conversely, last I knew, both the Holdemans (large numbers of Russian Mennonite descent) and the Apostolic Christians of Eastern European descent, both hold strongly to the notion that they each are the One True Church.

Is it still a thing among the Holdemans to excommunicate anyone leaving their church for another plain church?

[JohnH]

Is it still a thing among the Holdemans to excommunicate anyone leaving their church for another plain church?

Yes, like other plain groups, we don’t tolerate people leaving to go to (nearly always) less-conservative group.

If someone thinks our church isn’t worth staying in and that another church is better, I’m not sure why they care so much about what church thinks.

Consider this question: Is it still a thing among the other plain churches to have church splits and for members to leave to go to a church that has less rules?

[seinetsodumm]

Is it still a thing among the Holdemans to excommunicate anyone leaving their church for another plain church?

Yes, like other plain groups, we don’t tolerate people leaving to go to (nearly always) less-conservative group.

If someone thinks our church isn’t worth staying in and that another church is better, I’m not sure why they care so much about what church thinks.

Consider this question: Is it still a thing among the other plain churches to have church splits and for members to leave to go to a church that has less rules?

I did not specify less plain, but since you did, for clarity what happens if they leave the Holdeman and go to an Amish church? Or a Horning church?

Actually no, it's mostly not a thing among most of us. I can't speak for all, but I dare to say most of us churches listed on churchindex.com would not excommunicate someone who leaves for another church listed on churchindex.

So I ask you a question: If the Holdeman church would excommunicate members for joining another church listed on church index, why are you so offended that church index does not list the Holdemans? Would you please stop trying to make this about ethnicity? Seems to me there are other factors at play.

The words of Jesus come to mind, "For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measure to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:2-3