The Early Anabaptists

[Bootstrap]

Wrong? I didn't say it was wrong. I said it signals a specific identity - both to others and to the women themselves.

And that is not the same thing as simplicity and avoiding show. In fact, it might be cheaper and easier to buy clothes at Walmart, and wearing clothes that signal identity also means standing out to others. So I think they are doing this partly for reasons that are different from the reasons the early Anabaptists made their choices about clothing.

Position 1: Modesty was important back then and now.

Position 2: Modesty back then was characterized by simplicity

Position 3: clothing styles back then were more universally acceptable for covering the body.

Position 4: Modesty now is to conceal the body as well as simplicity.

Position 5: Walmart sells what is popular

Position 6: popular is not really modest.

Following these positions, it makes logical sense that if society dressed modestly, then the point of plain clothing would be characterized by simplicity. As that is not true, the implication is that modesty is not generally sold at Walmart.

As long as you accept jeans as modest, there won't be similar thinking between conservatives and you. My wife would never wear jeans for example as both of us view them as immodest.

I'm pretty sure I will never be a plain Mennonite, and I'm pretty sure plain Mennonites think differently than I do.

For one thing, I think that modesty is relative to a given culture, what is considered normal and modest in that culture may be very different from what is considered normal and modest in another culture. I don't think the Bible gives us absolutes here. And I assume that you feel it's quite clear that jeans are not modest, no matter how our culture feels about them in general.

But I also think you can buy a wide variety of clothing, for most definitions of modest, and much of that is available in Kohl's or Walmart or whatever. Other things are available online. Let me be clear: I am not at all against sewing your own clothes, and I think a given church can make decisions about how they want to dress, I am not saying you are wrong to do any of this.

But I also think that the things that distinguish us are not the things the early Anabaptists were most concerned with.

[Soloist]

I'm pretty sure I will never be a plain Mennonite, and I'm pretty sure plain Mennonites think differently than I do.

For one thing, I think that modesty is relative to a given culture, what is considered normal and modest in that culture may be very different from what is considered normal and modest in another culture. I don't think the Bible gives us absolutes here. And I assume that you feel it's quite clear that jeans are not modest, no matter how our culture feels about them in general.

But I also think you can buy a wide variety of clothing, for most definitions of modest, and much of that is available in Kohl's or Walmart or whatever. Other things are available online. Let me be clear: I am not at all against sewing your own clothes, and I think a given church can make decisions about how they want to dress, I am not saying you are wrong to do any of this.

But I also think that the things that distinguish us are not the things the early Anabaptists were most concerned with.

And I think we disagree with you. As for most definitions of modest, many people think they are going to heaven too. Jesus answered that pretty clearly so most definitions of modest are not actually modest and then we would end up arguing over what modest even means. You of course know this so really we are just performing the same questions with the same answers on both sides again.

[JohnH]

Boot,

I would note that plain people make their own clothes because they think it’s more befitting for a Christian to do so than relying on store-bought clothes.

I have come around to mostly agree with this due to the extensive slave trade in modern textiles and “fast fashion” which promotes waste.

[Bootstrap]

You of course know this so really we are just performing the same questions with the same answers on both sides again.

Right. And at that point, I think we understand each other. And I respect your position, even though I do not agree with it.

[Bootstrap]

I would note that plain people make their own clothes because they think it’s more befitting for a Christian to do so than relying on store-bought clothes.

I have come around to mostly agree with this due to the extensive slave trade in modern textiles and “fast fashion” which promotes waste.

That's a good point.

I've had most of the clothes I wear for quite a long time. I'm not exactly a "fast fashion" kind of guy. And I do think the concern you raise is an important one.

FWIW, in the time of the early Anabaptists, clothing was labor intensive and much more expensive. In the late 1600s, we started to see cloth produced in the colonies. That expands in the 1700s and 1800s. I wonder how much of a concern this was for Anabaptists at the time?

[JohnH]

I would note that plain people make their own clothes because they think it’s more befitting for a Christian to do so than relying on store-bought clothes.

I have come around to mostly agree with this due to the extensive slave trade in modern textiles and “fast fashion” which promotes waste.

That's a good point.

I've had most of the clothes I wear for quite a long time. I'm not exactly a "fast fashion" kind of guy. And I do think the concern you raise is an important one.

Interestingly it’s an area they might find common cause with some of the most progressive wings of Anabaptism and Christianity.

An outgrowth of making your own clothes is that styles quickly diverge from mainstream styles and are no longer bound by what is practical to mass produce, and instead clothing styles become much more tailored to the individual wearer. Likewise traditional elements can remain because there is nobody forcing you to remove them, since you aren’t subject to an outside body dictating fashion trends.

I remain vigilant that these things not be barriers to seekers. I think seekers should be given clothes hand made or else be made to feel welcome in storebought clothes.

[Bootstrap]

I would note that plain people make their own clothes because they think it’s more befitting for a Christian to do so than relying on store-bought clothes.

I have come around to mostly agree with this due to the extensive slave trade in modern textiles and “fast fashion” which promotes waste.

That's a good point.

I've had most of the clothes I wear for quite a long time. I'm not exactly a "fast fashion" kind of guy. And I do think the concern you raise is an important one.

Interestingly it’s an area they might find common cause with some of the most progressive wings of Anabaptism and Christianity.

An outgrowth of making your own clothes is that styles quickly diverge from mainstream styles and are no longer bound by what is practical to mass produce, and instead clothing styles become much more tailored to the individual wearer. Likewise traditional elements can remain because there is nobody forcing you to remove them, since you aren’t subject to an outside body dictating fashion trends.

I remain vigilant that these things not be barriers to seekers. I think seekers should be given clothes hand made or else be made to feel welcome in storebought clothes.

FWIW, several of the women in our church sew at least some of their clothes, one probably sews almost all of her clothes. And they sure do a lot of quilting. I imagine the women at our church would enjoy doing this kind of thing with the women at your church.

It's not a skill I have developed. Or my wife.

[Ernie]

Many plain Anabaptists wear clothing that makes it easy to know they are plain Anabaptists just by looking at them, and if you look at the women, perhaps you can also identify which branch. In a given group, it often looks like the women are using the same patterns. The clothing signals a specific identity.

I have heard this argument from you since we first became acquainted around 18 years ago on MD. It comes up over and over.

I don't know that anybody on MN disagrees with you about this. I'm not sure who it is you are trying to persuade or what point you are trying to make. Can you explain?

I’m not trying to persuade anyone in particular, and I’m not keeping track of how often I’ve made a point over the years. I raised it because it still seems relevant to the discussion at hand, and because I believe it’s true.

I assume people here will agree with some things I say and disagree with others, just as I do with them. From your response, it sounds like you don’t disagree with this point. My main interest is whether the claim itself is accurate.

You of course know this so really we are just performing the same questions with the same answers on both sides again.

Right. And at that point, I think we understand each other. And I respect your position, even though I do not agree with it.

It would be nice to know sometime what is driving what seems to be an obsession with pointing out over the last 18??? years that the Plain Anabaptist tradition of wearing distinctive, traditional, hand sewn clothing was not practiced by early Anabaptists nor is it commanded in the New Testament.

I and very few Plain Anabaptists spend much time at all thinking about whether non-Plain Christians' definition of modesty is right or wrong. And it is rare that a Plain Anabaptist will try to point out to a non-Plain Anabaptist that what they consider to be modest is not modest. And rarely do Plain Anabaptists try to persuade non-Plain Anabaptists to wear home-sewn or religiously distinctive attire.
We know what we want and are glad to tell people why we do what we do if they ask.
When we interact with non-Plain Christians and non-Christians, are goal is to encourage belief, faith, repentance, and following Jesus. If the clothing topic comes up, it typically happens if someone asks us a question, is interested in joining our church, or wants to send their children to our schools.
Yes, we do have lots of internal discussions about clothing, but this is based on people's voluntary choice to be part of a congregation or denomination that has clothing rules.

What I wrote also applies to Benedictine and Franciscan and other similar orders that have distinctive religious attire.

[Bootstrap]

It would be nice to know sometime what is driving what seems to be an obsession with pointing out over the last 18??? years that the Plain Anabaptist tradition of wearing distinctive, traditional, hand sewn clothing was not practiced by early Anabaptists nor is it commanded in the New Testament.

I think many plain Anabaptists assume that non-plain Anabaptists have nothing in common with the early Anabaptists. I think that is partly because of clothing - we don't LOOK like what they expect Mennonites to look like. I think that a lot of what we have in common with plain Anabaptists is precisely what the early Anabaptists taught and did. Not just on clothing, but on many other things.

And just as plain clothing is an identity issue for many plain Mennonites, the teachings of the early Anabaptists is an identity issue for me.

In any discussion on clothing, or many other topics, most people are saying things they have said before. I wouldn't call that an obsession. Why not respond to the content of what I am saying, agree with it or disagree with it, add to it, clarify where I got things wrong, etc?

[Bootstrap]

I and very few Plain Anabaptists spend much time at all thinking about whether non-Plain Christians' definition of modesty is right or wrong. And it is rare that a Plain Anabaptist will try to point out to a non-Plain Anabaptist that what they consider to be modest is not modest. And rarely do Plain Anabaptists try to persuade non-Plain Anabaptists to wear home-sewn or religiously distinctive attire.
We know what we want and are glad to tell people why we do what we do if they ask.
When we interact with non-Plain Christians and non-Christians, are goal is to encourage belief, faith, repentance, and following Jesus. If the clothing topic comes up, it typically happens if someone asks us a question, is interested in joining our church, or wants to send their children to our schools.
Yes, we do have lots of internal discussions about clothing, but this is based on people's voluntary choice to be part of a congregation or denomination that has clothing rules.

What I wrote also applies to Benedictine and Franciscan and other similar orders that have distinctive religious attire.

I don't think I have said anything at odds with that, have I? And really, I don't think any of that is wrong.

I do think there are some plain Anabaptists who believe there are more universal definitions of modesty, e.g. when it comes to jeans. I am basing that on the responses some people have given.