Copyrights

[JohnH]

LLMs are built on mass copyright violation. It’s quite dishonest not to acknowledge that.

[Bootstrap]

If one truly wanted to comply with copyright laws, one would not (for example) use LLMs, even though currently you can get away with it.

Using an LLM for summarization tasks, when I provide the input and the instructions, allows me to use LLMs without violating copyright.

That doesn't mean that the LLM providers don't violate copyright, I think they do. But I have no control over that.

[Neto]

If one truly wanted to comply with copyright laws, one would not (for example) use LLMs, even though currently you can get away with it.

Using an LLM for summarization tasks, when I provide the input and the instructions, allows me to use LLMs without violating copyright.

That doesn't mean that the LLM providers don't violate copyright, I think they do. But I have no control over that.

I didn't know this, and it also hadn't occurred to me that this might be the case.

But now I can't help thinking about a guy that came around the car dealership where my Dad worked in the parts department, and took orders for used tires and wheels. He had a little black book where he had written where all he'd seen cars with different sizes and types of wheels and tires, and when he got an 'order' for some that matched, he'd drop by the place (at night) where he's seen them, and "pick them up". That way they were only in his possession for a very short time, greatly reducing the chance of getting caught with those stolen goods. I was once offered a 327 V8 with (if I recall correctly) dual 4 barrel carbs, for only 75 bucks. They just needed to go out and dig it up in a field someplace. (It was, they said, wrapped in plastic, to avoid moisture damage, and it wasn't going to stay there very long anyway, because at that price, it was going to move quickly.) This was back in 73 or 74. The engine was out of a Corvette. Would it be different if they were going to just give it to me?

[JohnH]

If one truly wanted to comply with copyright laws, one would not (for example) use LLMs, even though currently you can get away with it.

Using an LLM for summarization tasks, when I provide the input and the instructions, allows me to use LLMs without violating copyright.

That doesn't mean that the LLM providers don't violate copyright, I think they do. But I have no control over that.

I’m referring to training the LLM.

When you use an LLM, you are participating in and taking advantage of how it was trained.

[ken_sylvania]

But people can disagree about the best way to structure these things or whether copyright should exist at all. In any society, law represents an agreement about the rules that will be enforced. No law is exactly what everyone wants it to be. But if we each feel free to steal whatever we think should not be under copyright, that's unjust.

Is anybody saying that?

I don't know. Sometimes I say something clearly to see whether people will agree or disagree with a clear statement. Sometimes it feels like you disagree with everything I say, and that raises the possibility that you might be saying that.

This is apparently not one of those times....

[ken_sylvania]

Interestingly, LLMs make it possible to create new resources with less effort, and to reimagine how we approach some kinds of resources. That makes it easier to create freely licensed resources. Which is something I am actually doing.

If one truly wanted to comply with copyright laws, one would not (for example) use LLMs, even though currently you can get away with it.

Using an LLM for summarization tasks, when I provide the input and the instructions, allows me to use LLMs without violating copyright.

That doesn't mean that the LLM providers don't violate copyright, I think they do. But I have no control over that.

Wow, that sounds a lot like saying "The local flea market makes it possible for me to pick up brand new Milwaukee tools at a deep discount compared to new price. It's easier and cheaper than shopping at Home Depot where the tools are locked up in cages. Shopping at the flea market allows me to get these tools at a low cost without stealing them. It doesn't mean that the guy that is selling them didn't steal them - I think he did. But I have no control over that."

[Bootstrap]

Interestingly, LLMs make it possible to create new resources with less effort, and to reimagine how we approach some kinds of resources. That makes it easier to create freely licensed resources. Which is something I am actually doing.

If one truly wanted to comply with copyright laws, one would not (for example) use LLMs, even though currently you can get away with it.

Using an LLM for summarization tasks, when I provide the input and the instructions, allows me to use LLMs without violating copyright.

That doesn't mean that the LLM providers don't violate copyright, I think they do. But I have no control over that.

Wow, that sounds a lot like saying "The local flea market makes it possible for me to pick up brand new Milwaukee tools at a deep discount compared to new price. It's easier and cheaper than shopping at Home Depot where the tools are locked up in cages. Shopping at the flea market allows me to get these tools at a low cost without stealing them. It doesn't mean that the guy that is selling them didn't steal them - I think he did. But I have no control over that."

I think it's a little more like saying that I can tell an LLM which sources to use and how to use them, asking it to do a summarizing task, and ensure that the process and the output do not depend on copyrighted materials that need to be out of bounds.

[Bootstrap]

I don't know. Sometimes I say something clearly to see whether people will agree or disagree with a clear statement. Sometimes it feels like you disagree with everything I say, and that raises the possibility that you might be saying that.

This is apparently not one of those times....

Here's the statement again. What part did you find unclear?

But people can disagree about the best way to structure these things or whether copyright should exist at all. In any society, law represents an agreement about the rules that will be enforced. No law is exactly what everyone wants it to be. But if we each feel free to steal whatever we think should not be under copyright, that's unjust.

To me, the last line was the heart of what I was saying:

But if we each feel free to steal whatever we think should not be under copyright, that's unjust.

As opposed to "every man did whatever was right in his own eyes". Which did not work out so well in Judges.

Which parts did you find unclear? Which parts do you agree with? Which parts do you disagree with?

[ken_sylvania]

I don't know. Sometimes I say something clearly to see whether people will agree or disagree with a clear statement. Sometimes it feels like you disagree with everything I say, and that raises the possibility that you might be saying that.

This is apparently not one of those times....

Here's the statement again. What part did you find unclear?

But people can disagree about the best way to structure these things or whether copyright should exist at all. In any society, law represents an agreement about the rules that will be enforced. No law is exactly what everyone wants it to be. But if we each feel free to steal whatever we think should not be under copyright, that's unjust.

To me, the last line was the heart of what I was saying:

But if we each feel free to steal whatever we think should not be under copyright, that's unjust.

As opposed to "every man did whatever was right in his own eyes". Which did not work out so well in Judges.

Which parts did you find unclear? Which parts do you agree with? Which parts do you disagree with?

I can't figure out what you mean by:

Sometimes it feels like you disagree with everything I say, and that raises the possibility that you might be saying that.

Specifically the underlined part - it isn't clear to me what you think JohnH might be saying or how his pattern of disagreeing with everything you say raises the possibility of him saying it.

[Bootstrap]

I can't figure out what you mean by:

Sometimes it feels like you disagree with everything I say, and that raises the possibility that you might be saying that.

Specifically the underlined part - it isn't clear to me what you think JohnH might be saying or how his pattern of disagreeing with everything you say raises the possibility of him saying it.

At the time, I wasn't sure if John agrees with the following or not:

In any society, law represents an agreement about the rules that will be enforced. No law is exactly what everyone wants it to be. But if we each feel free to steal whatever we think should not be under copyright, that's unjust.