briar patch

[Soloist]

Have you noticed how much of the energy in some of your posts goes into saying or implying negative things about me compared to the time and effort you put into actually saying something? I would much rather have a discussion about the topic than a snip-fest. I don't think that energy is well spent. It's becoming rather a habit.

I don't feel like I'm spending any energy doing so. I think you are making assumptions.

I don't know how much energy you put into writing this part of your posts, I imagine not much. I think this is just a habit you have fallen into. But try reading these posts - what percent of the post actually makes a statement about the subject? What percent is going into venting negative emotion? Is that really what you want your posts to do?

And that energy makes it much, much harder to have a conversation about the actual subject. It's almost like a filibuster.

I would rather have a discussion than an argument. Especially when it's not even clear what the argument is about.

Evidently I don’t spend the time you do. How about you accept you misunderstood and move on?

[Soloist]

I think there's a significant difference between:

1. Organizing a boycott of Russian oil when Russia is using that money to invade Ukraine, and
2. Claiming the general right to force countries "in our sphere" to let us decide who their leader is and who they are allow3ed to do business with.

I understand your position but we’ve operated the way you dislike for years.

I think it's better for you to simply say, plainly, what you think of this, without imagining what I might or might not be thinking you think. Don't make me guess. Don't wonder what I would guess. Let me handle what I think, what you think is currently underrepresented in this conversation, and I can't cover for you there.

I did and you continued acting as though I hadn’t. Is it hard to understand how I might think you misunderstood me if you don’t think I answered?
You know this is a very thing you seem to be so upset about usually how we spend all this time arguing about peripheral issues so maybe you should just drop this and reread my posts explaining and then ask a clarifying question so you can understand.

When this kind of thing was done behind closed doors, and it was discovered, that has often been a time for outrage, sometimes that has led to cleaning things up. There were investigations into wrongdoing.

I disagree. What accountability was done over Iraq? About the Iranian coup? About the several South American ones? We could go on if you’d like and dice through all these individually.

Now, it feels like the transgression is celebrated - "look what we can get away with!" It's televised and promoted on social media. It becomes national policy, who we are, what we stand for. And I do think that makes it worse.

Yeah, the veil has been torn away and now you see what happens. The hypocrisy has been exposed to the American people and a little over half of them like it.

"Hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue". If someone caught in the act of adultery has to resign his post in shame, there is still a public sense that adultery is wrong. If someone caught in the act of adultery gets to brag about what he gets away with, it makes it cool, a sign of power, a sign of being the kind of person who can do whatever he wants.

That’s kind of how society is nowadays. Being OK with it or not isn’t the point.

[Bootstrap]

I think it's better for you to simply say, plainly, what you think of this, without imagining what I might or might not be thinking you think. Don't make me guess. Don't wonder what I would guess. Let me handle what I think, what you think is currently underrepresented in this conversation, and I can't cover for you there.

I did and you continued acting as though I hadn’t.

Here's the post we this latest exchange started out with:

I cannot think of any way that this conflict helps the average American.

Makes good television, but it sure would be nice to see this effort put into things that do improve our lives. Venezuela is no threat to us.

I don't know what you agree with or disagree with there. Seems like you want to discuss other things instead. Maybe you have said things in the past, but when I look at our latest exchange, it looks more like you deflecting from this to other subjects. So if you agree with me, it doesn't show in what you write. Or if you disagree, I do not understand exactly where you disagree or why.

Do you believe Venezuela is a threat to the United States that justifies military action? Do you think this helps the average American?

[Soloist]

I think it's better for you to simply say, plainly, what you think of this, without imagining what I might or might not be thinking you think. Don't make me guess. Don't wonder what I would guess. Let me handle what I think, what you think is currently underrepresented in this conversation, and I can't cover for you there.

I did and you continued acting as though I hadn’t.

Here's the post we this latest exchange started out with:

I cannot think of any way that this conflict helps the average American.

Makes good television, but it sure would be nice to see this effort put into things that do improve our lives. Venezuela is no threat to us.

I don't know what you agree with or disagree with there. Seems like you want to discuss other things instead. Maybe you have said things in the past, but when I look at our latest exchange, it looks more like you deflecting from this to other subjects. So if you agree with me, it doesn't show in what you write. Or if you disagree, I do not understand exactly where you disagree or why.

Do you believe Venezuela is a threat to the United States that justifies military action? Do you think this helps the average American?

Not justifying it, but you aren't thinking about global players positioning these things like chess pieces.

What isn't a threat now, can become a threat later.

I’ve tried to explain this to you before and you don’t seem to grasp it. This is about Russia and Chinese investments in what America views as its territory.
I think you’re also conflating what I’m saying. I never said it was actually going to improve the lives of average Americans. I explained to you one possibility for why it might be happening.

Questions as to how I answered you?

[Bootstrap]

Here's the post we this latest exchange started out with:

I cannot think of any way that this conflict helps the average American.

Makes good television, but it sure would be nice to see this effort put into things that do improve our lives. Venezuela is no threat to us.

I don't know what you agree with or disagree with there. Seems like you want to discuss other things instead. Maybe you have said things in the past, but when I look at our latest exchange, it looks more like you deflecting from this to other subjects. So if you agree with me, it doesn't show in what you write. Or if you disagree, I do not understand exactly where you disagree or why.

Do you believe Venezuela is a threat to the United States that justifies military action? Do you think this helps the average American?

Not justifying it, but you aren't thinking about global players positioning these things like chess pieces.

What isn't a threat now, can become a threat later.

I’ve tried to explain this to you before and you don’t seem to grasp it. This is about Russia and Chinese investments in what America views as its territory.
I think you’re also conflating what I’m saying. I never said it was actually going to improve the lives of average Americans. I explained to you one possibility for why it might be happening.

Questions as to how I answered you?

It's amusing that you repeatedly start out by emphasizing how dumb I must be, how unable to grasp the stuff that you so brilliantly see.

Then you imply that there is some grand strategy of chess ... which you later back off of. And you say you aren't justifying it ... but you seem to be justifying it. And you say you aren't saying whether or not it will improve the lives of average Americans. You explain one possibility for why it might be happening, without saying whether that would be good or bad.

So maybe the reason I'm not grasping what you are saying is that you aren't saying anything very directly or clearly. Nothing in what you write here feels like you think bullying Venezuela like this is bad. Or good, for that matter. The only thing you are saying clearly is that my failure to grasp is the real problem.

Well ... explain it clearly so that even someone as stupid as me can clearly understand what you are saying. Let's go ahead and stipulate that I am stupid and slow to grasp. Now let's get back to the subject. With your superior understanding, I'm sure you can enlighten me.

What do you think of the military buildup morally? How do you think this affects the standing of the United States with our allies? Good? Bad? War crimes? Does this benefit Exxon or the American citizen? Or someone else?

[Soloist]

It's amusing that you repeatedly start out by emphasizing how dumb I must be, how unable to grasp the stuff that you so brilliantly see.

Then you imply that there is some grand strategy of chess ... which you later back off of. And you say you aren't justifying it ... but you seem to be justifying it. And you say you aren't saying whether or not it will improve the lives of average Americans. You explain one possibility for why it might be happening, without saying whether that would be good or bad.

So maybe the reason I'm not grasping what you are saying is that you aren't saying anything very directly or clearly. Nothing in what you write here feels like you think bullying Venezuela like this is bad. Or good, for that matter. The only thing you are saying clearly is that my failure to grasp is the real problem.

Well ... explain it clearly so that even someone as stupid as me can clearly understand what you are saying.

Assumptions. Please don't assume I'm calling you dumb.


I didn't back off of a chess argument. You misunderstood wherever you are getting that idea from.

I specifically stated I wasn't addressing the average Americans already.

Do I have to take a side for you to accept my statements? I'm evaluating the response and explaining a possibility to you.

Maybe you are trying to read a good bad narrative into my post and I'm not doing that. Thus, you are not able to categorize me and are missing my point perhaps.

To explain it as simply as I can. Russia and China are investing in territory around us. The US government has been quietly countering this as we do the same thing to them too. Pres Trump comes along and does the same thing openly.
The logic is the same logic that caused the Cuban missile crisis.
Do you understand my point now? Don't bother trying to fit me into a side, I'm explaining military/political strategic thought, not taking a side.

[Soloist]

So maybe the reason I'm not grasping what you are saying is that you aren't saying anything very directly or clearly. Nothing in what you write here feels like you think bullying Venezuela like this is bad. Or good, for that matter. The only thing you are saying clearly is that my failure to grasp is the real problem.

Well ... explain it clearly so that even someone as stupid as me can clearly understand what you are saying. Let's go ahead and stipulate that I am stupid and slow to grasp. Now let's get back to the subject. With your superior understanding, I'm sure you can enlighten me.

What do you think of the military buildup morally? How do you think this affects the standing of the United States with our allies? Good? Bad? War crimes? Does this benefit Exxon or the American citizen? Or someone else?

I'll let someone else comment if I'm speaking clearly and direct.

I'd ask that you cool down. I'm not insulting you here.

As I posted elsewhere, I'd rather we just openly declare war rather then sink civilian ships. I was quite open earlier in this thread about how these things ie sinking supposed drug smugglers was wrong. As for the new economic warfare, I have no specific stance as these actions are in line with any major power and we've been doing the same world wide for years.

[Bootstrap]

So maybe the reason I'm not grasping what you are saying is that you aren't saying anything very directly or clearly. Nothing in what you write here feels like you think bullying Venezuela like this is bad. Or good, for that matter. The only thing you are saying clearly is that my failure to grasp is the real problem.

Well ... explain it clearly so that even someone as stupid as me can clearly understand what you are saying. Let's go ahead and stipulate that I am stupid and slow to grasp. Now let's get back to the subject. With your superior understanding, I'm sure you can enlighten me.

What do you think of the military buildup morally? How do you think this affects the standing of the United States with our allies? Good? Bad? War crimes? Does this benefit Exxon or the American citizen? Or someone else?

I'll let someone else comment if I'm speaking clearly and direct.

I'd ask that you cool down. I'm not insulting you here.

I am telling you that it sure feels that way to me. You are saying plenty about my inability to grasp things that I don't think you have been saying clearly. I tried several rounds of asking you to focus on the subject instead of talking about me. I think it's about time I mention how it feels to me when you make it all about me instead of the subject.

Perhaps you could stop doing that instead of asking me to cool down when you do it? I promise to stick to discussing the subject if that's what we are discussing, that's exactly what I have been asking for. I'm even happy to be the stupid one you have to explain things to if we can discuss the subject, directly.

Back to the actual subject:

As I posted elsewhere, I'd rather we just openly declare war rather then sink civilian ships. I was quite open earlier in this thread about how these things ie sinking supposed drug smugglers was wrong. As for the new economic warfare, I have no specific stance as these actions are in line with any major power and we've been doing the same world wide for years.

Is there any justification for declaring war under traditional American or international law?

Saying we have done bad things in the past doesn't justify it now. We seem to be just murdering people without any proof of anything.

[Soloist]

I am telling you that it sure feels that way to me. You are saying plenty about my inability to grasp things that I don't think you have been saying clearly. I tried several rounds of asking you to focus on the subject instead of talking about me. I think it's about time I mention how it feels to me when you make it all about me instead of the subject.

Perhaps you could stop doing that instead of asking me to cool down when you do it?

I have stated this as you are not understanding what I've stated clearly. I am fine dropping the meta argument over your understanding but I'll continue to explain as I have and if you don't understand you need to ask clarifying questions rather then get offended or insist I didn't answer.

Is there any justification for declaring war under traditional American or international law?

International law is sort of a waste of time. America has never really listened outside of using it when convenient. As for American law, as far as I know it takes an act of Congress to declare war and for the last quite a few engagements, they have been "conflicts" I think... the last declared war was WW2.
Korea for example was a "conflict" that even drafted our people.

Saying we have done bad things in the past doesn't justify it now. We seem to be just murdering people without any proof of anything.

show me where you read me as justifying actions. I've explained and not justified. You are... misunderstanding me.

[Bootstrap]

I am fine dropping the meta argument over your understanding but I'll continue to explain as I have and if you don't understand you need to ask clarifying questions rather then get offended or insist I didn't answer.

I think dropping the meta-argument would be very helpful.

When I ask clarifying questions, direct answers are helpful. Even if you think you have answered a given question before.