Venezuela 2025

[Jazman]

Let’s change the narrative for a moment…

I am confused why terrorists are being defended.

Answer:
In Cuba, we have people that we picked up under terrorist and charges that were mistakes and they were tortured. They were imprisoned for years, and some of them were never able to actually even leave Cuba ever.

Let’s just theorize that if we can make mistakes and torture people and condemn them to prison for indefinite detention, that maybe we can make mistakes and kill people who are not actually drug smugglers.
There’s a reason that there are laws from a so-called Christian nation designed to give a right to a fair trial.
If you take away the rights of people accused of crime then you don’t have any rights in this country to begin with.
All the government has to do is accuse you of a crime and then you don’t have a fair trial. You don’t have any way to contest what you are accused of, this is what is the concern.
So it’s two fold, not only is it unethical and immoral to kill people without actually charging them with a crime because that is the point of having a government, and that is in the realm of a government authority…
Do unto others as you would have them do to you. If our government would be upset at another nation doing this to our citizens, then it is only reasonable for the same to be true in reverse, so really this comes down to the fact that the US is too big to be bullied. And calling the United States a Christian nation when they actively kill people without trial, without proof other than the so-called secret proof which led us looking for weapons of mass destruction that didn’t even exist…

If this is the nation you want to be part of, then it’s only logical to remove legal defense from any criminal. We should literally just have a decision made by a secret party such as a judge that no one ever meets no reason to have a chance to defend yourself because you’re guilty. The evidence is irrefutable if you never even see it.
That is the country you’re defending. That is the strategy that’s being used - so if you find me being extreme or taking a position you find to be silly remember this when it eventually happens to people not guilty. whether or not these people are guilty. They should be given a fair of trial.

This really has nothing to do with Christianity, but you could certainly twist this into a view of Christianity such as a woman comes to the bishop and says this man assaulted me and the bishop without investigating or talking to the person accused simply decides he’s guilty.
Without any chance of appeal or a chance to share his side, he is excommunicated until he repents of his sinful behavior.
That certainly wouldn’t be this sort of church I would want, and the only one who has this capability to be just is God. God doesn’t need us to argue in our defense because He already knows everything.

I'm reading Acts recently and Paul, as a Roman citizen gets due process... Acts 22 a Jewish? mob wants to harm/eliminate? him and he reveals his citizenship to the guards. It's interesting to see how afraid they (the authorities/guards) are when they realize they were about to deny Paul due process... And the Romans were pagans...
Someone's bound to pipe up with "but those 'terrorists' on those boats aren't citizens...so..." And to that I refer you to the Gospels and Jesus' death. Yes, ultimately he was killed, largely because of a spineless Pilate, but even Jesus, a dirt poor backwoods Jew from a rebel hotbed was afforded due process... in fact multiple rounds of it (Sanhedrin, Pilate, Herod).
I think some of the same can be found in the OT Law. So maybe these things from the Bible did influence the traditions of Western Civ, English common law, the american founders etc? Maybe we should stick with the traditions of due process and Biblical principles instead of listening to/following the new radical trumpism movement which by all appearances & deeds, on multiple fronts!, wants to do away with the multiple layers & procedures of due process?
I really hope the precedent that the revolutionaries seem to want now, doesn't become a new normal that comes back around someday when they're not in power anymore...(I mean this sincerely... this is not sarcasm). But I'm afraid that some of this stuff is going to come around someday and hurt all of us, including family/friends who wholeheartedly root for this new revolutionary way of doing things...

[temporal1]

The “intention” of Drug cartels and drug Lords is to harm people. For money. Not the same thing. I was simply answering Boots referring to them the way he was. Democrats seem to always defend the bad guys. You all are perfectly free to try to convert them. How would you go about that?

Did Jesus come for the righteous or call the sinners to repentance? They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17
Would you like the focus to be on converting the good people? There is none good, no not one.

I guess this does sort of remind me of the theology of “the ancient churches”. Just kill everyone who is “bad”. Use the tip of the spear. Send in the Templar Knights, it crusade time. Their family can just pray the dead out of purgatory later.

Should we shoot thieves? How about if they escape, should they be hunted down and shot on the spot? What about other crimes? Just shoot everyone? Maybe we just dispense with the whole justice system entirely. White collar crime, shoot em. Just shoot everyone.

1) Being part of a Christian faith that is non-resistant, no we should not shoot thieves.
Our founding fathers wisely set up a government that has a separation of church and state.

2) It is not the church's responsibility to take the matters of lawbreakers, murderers, thieves, etc. Into their hands.
Romans 13:1-7 clearly states that governing authorities are set up to punish wrongdoers and uphold justice, to be "avengers to execute wrath on him who practices evil," bearing the sword to enforce punishment.

And no, the government should not just shoot anyone.
And not that I justify this, but that is what governments have been doing for centuries. Especially during wars.

I am confused why people defend drug traffickers.

It’s confusing when statements are made about Two Kingdom theology, not voting, being CO, separation from state etc., then to turn to plural pronouns, example, “Should we shoot thieves?” as though there’s no separation from state, and, insistence that the state should follow Jesus, to love its stated enemies. It seems really easy (for anyone at all) to recite Jesus when the perception is it’s useful for the point at hand. The most ignorant people do this, in attempt to control Christians. Often effective.

Thing is, there are devout Christians living their faith on all continents, sometimes in hiding, sometimes under harsh persecution, they remain faithful anyway.

i have no idea what’s happening in Venezuela.
i have no doubt it will be investigated to the max, with extreme partisanship in play.

In my view, the ultimate goal for Christians is to convert souls - no matter what earthly governments do.

Respectable earthly governments are concerned about their legal citizens and legal borders, not conversion of souls.
Christians address conversion in the wake of gov policies (not appropriating gov policies+funds to convert souls).

Following decades of evil ones hijacking+pirating the legal system which has rendered it useless to stop or control drug trafficking,
i do not object to gov trying a more direct response, with hopes of efficiency and effectiveness, understanding the evil ones are enjoying themselves running the system in circles around itself. Also understanding there are boundaries and demands for accountability for gov actions.

T+admin will NOT be allowed to run free and make a mockery of the legal system like criminals, cartels, enablers, profiteers, etc., have been allowed to do. Criminals have made a laughingstock out of the courts. Much of it by twisting legal language with a good measure of twisting scriptures for the fun of it.

Christians want ALL to convert. No matter their role.
There is plenty for Christians to do, and ways to do it, without taking over earthly rule of law.

boot:
Ah, but that strategy only works for those who are actually guilty of the crimes.

News to me.
Respecting laws has worked really-really well for me and people i know and don’t know all over the world.
i will take a wild guess that includes you and everyone on this forum.

i believe “law-abiding” is the norm, not the exception.

How about stop drug running? You were warned, now stop.

Drug runners are not unwarned or unarmed.
i believe this will all come out in court, and plenty more.

[R7ehr]

I came across this verse in Proverbs 6, and thought of this thread.
Of course some believe these Venezuelans are guilty, and that may well be. I’m not saying they are innocent. What I am thinking though, is that it looks to me like if they are innocent, then these verses apply. And that government officials have a duty to ensure that they aren’t just killing innocent people in their haste.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Romans 3:12-15

Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands. Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Isaiah 59:6b-7a

My son, do not go along with them, do not set foot on their paths; for their feet rush into evil, they are swift to shed blood. Proverbs 1:15-16

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Proverbs 6:16-17

[temporal1]

I came across this verse and thought of this thread. Of course some believe these Venezuelans are guilty, and that may well be. I’m not saying they are innocent. What I am thinking though, is that it looks to me like if they are innocent, then these verses apply.

And that government officials have a duty to ensure that they aren’t just killing innocent people in their haste.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Romans 3:12-15

Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands. Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Isaiah 59:6b-7a

My son, do not go along with them, do not set foot on their paths; for their feet rush into evil, they are swift to shed blood. Proverbs 1:15-16

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Proverbs 6:16-17

Respectable governments have duties to ensure they aren’t being hasty.

This is impossible to be openly known in the moment. It is NOT typical for governments to be open about their actions, plans, knowledge in the moment, and possibly ever.

Social media seems to make everyone think they all have high level security clearances with individual rights to decide+control POTUS, the War Dept, Congress, et al., beyond the scope of SCOTUS, the Geneva Convention, etc.

This is absurd.

For perspective, JFK’s assassination is still being questioned today.

Ultimately, God sees+knows all. God alone.

[R7ehr]

Respectable governments have duties to ensure they aren’t being hasty.

Right.

[Bootstrap]

Here's another thing that looks fishy: these boats look like fishing boats, not the kinds of boats used for drug trafficking.

The boats shown in the strike videos appear to be small, ordinary fishing-style vessels. These boats are:

• Length: about 20–30 feet
• Crew size: only 3–5 people
• Engines: one small outboard engine
• Range: no visible fuel reserves or capacity for long-distance travel, unable to make it to the United States
• Structure: open skiffs with no cabin, no cover, no reinforced hull
• Cargo capacity: minimal — no room for large loads
• Compartments: no hidden storage or modifications
• Weapons: none visible in any released videos

The boats used for narcotrafficking are made for long-range, high-value smuggling and usually have:

• Length: 40–60 ft go-fast boats, 80–120 ft modified fishing vessels, or 50–100 ft narco-subs
• Crew size: 4–10 people, depending on vessel type
• Engines: multiple high-horsepower outboards or diesel inboards
• Range: large fuel bladders enabling multi-day ocean routes to Central America, Mexico, or the Caribbean
• Structure: reinforced or semi-submersible hulls designed for long-distance travel
• Cargo capacity: able to carry tons of cocaine, precursors, or other contraband
• Compartments: concealed storage, false floors, or hidden tanks
• Weapons: assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, and sometimes mounted machine guns
• Operational capability: fully capable of long-range smuggling routes to markets ultimately serving the U.S.

[ken_sylvania]

Here's another thing that looks fishy: these boats look like fishing boats, not the kinds of boats used for drug trafficking.

The boats shown in the strike videos appear to be small, ordinary fishing-style vessels. These boats are:

• Length: about 20–30 feet
• Crew size: only 3–5 people
• Engines: one small outboard engine
• Range: no visible fuel reserves or capacity for long-distance travel, unable to make it to the United States
• Structure: open skiffs with no cabin, no cover, no reinforced hull
• Cargo capacity: minimal — no room for large loads
• Compartments: no hidden storage or modifications
• Weapons: none visible in any released videos

The boats used for narcotrafficking are made for long-range, high-value smuggling and usually have:

• Length: 40–60 ft go-fast boats, 80–120 ft modified fishing vessels, or 50–100 ft narco-subs
• Crew size: 4–10 people, depending on vessel type
• Engines: multiple high-horsepower outboards or diesel inboards
• Range: large fuel bladders enabling multi-day ocean routes to Central America, Mexico, or the Caribbean
• Structure: reinforced or semi-submersible hulls designed for long-distance travel
• Cargo capacity: able to carry tons of cocaine, precursors, or other contraband
• Compartments: concealed storage, false floors, or hidden tanks
• Weapons: assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, and sometimes mounted machine guns
• Operational capability: fully capable of long-range smuggling routes to markets ultimately serving the U.S.

I'd have a lot more respect for what gets posted under the Bootstrap name if it was written by a human instead of a computer. Did you even bother to fact-check the content before you posted it?

Now, compare your AI generated list with the following quoted from an AP interview with fishermen in Venezuela:

Speculation over the strike is still going around Venezuela, with people wondering who died and whether their deaths are part of a plan to topple President Nicolás Maduro. Some have questioned their government’s assertions that a video of the strike released by President Trump was created with artificial intelligence and that a boat of that size cannot venture into the high seas.
But fishermen in the peninsula immediately recognized some characteristics of the boat from the video. They said it was a 12-meter-long fishing boat known in Venezuela as “peñero” with four powerful and expensive motors. They estimated the engines were at least 200 horsepower each, a force five times more powerful than typically used on local peñeros.
“Fishing doesn’t pay enough to buy a motor like that,” said fisherman Junior González, taking a break from repairing a boat along the shore of Guaca. Only a handful of roughly two dozen sardine processing plants still operate in this community following years of overfishing, failed restoration and the country’s overarching crisis.
González explained that the motors he uses run between $4,000 and $5,000 each, while one of those needed to reach Trinidad and Tobago — the suspected destination of the targeted boat — sell for $15,000 to $20,000.

Do you still maintain that the boat in the video was just a small open skiff with a single small outboard engine?

What is your source for the claim that narcotrafficking boats normally have weapons on display?

[ohio jones]

I could envision narco-smugglers using an AI generated list like this to see what they need to do to disguise themselves.

[Bootstrap]

I'd have a lot more respect for what gets posted under the Bootstrap name if it was written by a human instead of a computer. Did you even bother to fact-check the content before you posted it?

I did do some fact checking, some of this before writing the draft, some after. Here are some other sources:

https://factually.co/fact-checks/enviro ... eds-b933e8

https://www.allatsea.net/the-venezuelan-pinero-boat/

And I took another look after seeing your post. I think these things are true:

“Peñero” is a local Venezuelan term for a small, open coastal fishing skiff (the term seems to be used less in Colombia). Typical peñeros range from about 20–35 feet, and that’s why people looking at the strike videos estimated a length in that range. The AP report says this one was about 12 meters (roughly 39 feet), and longer peñeros do exist. Fishermen can probably make a good guess about engine size as well.

But the AP article does not say this was a boat headed to the United States. It says the suspected destination was Trinidad or Tobago. That’s a short run—only about 11–20 miles from the Venezuelan coast—and it’s in relatively sheltered coastal waters, not the deep ocean. Peñeros are commonly used on that route for various kinds of short-distance smuggling.

I don’t think a boat like this would be safe on the high seas. A 39-foot open skiff with no cabin, no reinforcement, limited fuel storage, and as many as 11 people aboard? Even the AP article you cite suggests Trinidad or Tobago as the likely destinations.

The AP source says fishing would not pay for such a boat, and there's not a lot of good fishing left in those waters. Perhaps they were smuggling drugs or something else to Trinidad or Tobago. But it's hard to imagine boats like these smuggling drugs to the United States. Nothing in the videos shows drugs or weapons, though.

The best way to know would be to capture the boats, show what is on board, and try the people on the boat in court so we can hear the evidence.

[ohio jones]

But it's hard to imagine boats like these smuggling drugs to the United States.

It's not hard to imagine boats (not necessarily like these) smuggling drugs from T&T to the US, perhaps with additional intermediate stops.