Places to invest, other than in stocks...

[Southerner]

You are much better off never borrowing money.

A close friend and I have practically vowed to each other not to ever go in debt.

And considering how expensive rent is relative to income these days, it's about impossible to save up enough money to buy a house cash.

My wife and I would love to live in a house... currently live in a shed.

[Ernie]

When Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall, he found that the infrastructure of the city was crumbling, but even worse, the moral fiber of God's people had eroded. They were lending at interest (and only 1% interest at that)!

So I continued, “What you are doing is not right. Shouldn’t you walk in the fear of our God to avoid the reproach of our Gentile enemies? I and my brothers and my men are also lending the people money and grain. But let us stop charging interest! Give back to them immediately their fields, vineyards, olive groves and houses, and also the interest you are charging them—one percent of the money, grain, new wine and olive oil.”

If I understand correctly, this was 1% monthly or 12% annually.

Here are some instructions from the law.

1. Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him.”

2. Leviticus 25:35–37
“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you.
Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you.
You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit.”

3. Deuteronomy 23:19–20
“You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest.
You may charge a foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.”

I don't think number three applies to today, since they were not commanded in the New Testament, just like I don't think tithing and burnt grain offerings apply to today. And yes, I realize that this goes against what has been taught for centuries.

I think #1 and #2 do apply to today since those principles are reaffirmed in the New Testament.

It seems to me that those who try to keep the OT teachings often (not always) miss the principle, just like the Jews did in Jesus day. Which is why I think the New Testament establishes a different set of commands and precepts.

[Southerner]

On places to invest other than stocks, I think AF is an option although after the Trickling Springs fiasco, (never had money w them but some of my relatives did) I felt nervous about AF. You can get good returns w Eventide but it is very risky. I view land as the safest but realize land values are through the roof. Been in stocks since I was 16 cuz AF and CD interest rates have not kept up w inflation.

[mike]

On places to invest other than stocks, I think AF is an option although after the Trickling Springs fiasco, (never had money w them but some of my relatives did) I felt nervous about AF. You can get good returns w Eventide but it is very risky. I view land as the safest but realize land values are through the roof. Been in stocks since I was 16 cuz AF and CD interest rates have not kept up w inflation.

What connection did AF have with Trickling Springs?

The Trickling Springs financing scheme was run by Philip Riehl who is currently in prison, and others who possibly should be.

[Southerner]

On places to invest other than stocks, I think AF is an option although after the Trickling Springs fiasco, (never had money w them but some of my relatives did) I felt nervous about AF. You can get good returns w Eventide but it is very risky. I view land as the safest but realize land values are through the roof. Been in stocks since I was 16 cuz AF and CD interest rates have not kept up w inflation.

What connection did AF have with Trickling Springs?

The Trickling Springs financing scheme was run by Philip Riehl who is currently in prison, and others who possibly should be.

No connection between AF and Trickling Springs...other than that both were Plain investment groups and when the one collapsed, I became concerned about AF's viability. Obviously many differences between the two companies...AF is independently audited, etc..

[JohnH]

On places to invest other than stocks, I think AF is an option although after the Trickling Springs fiasco, (never had money w them but some of my relatives did) I felt nervous about AF. You can get good returns w Eventide but it is very risky. I view land as the safest but realize land values are through the roof. Been in stocks since I was 16 cuz AF and CD interest rates have not kept up w inflation.

What connection did AF have with Trickling Springs?

The Trickling Springs financing scheme was run by Philip Riehl who is currently in prison, and others who possibly should be.

No connection between AF and Trickling Springs...other than that both were Plain investment groups and when the one collapsed, I became concerned about AF's viability. Obviously many differences between the two companies...AF is independently audited, etc..

Is AF an actual securities broker?

[Ernie]

Obviously many differences between the two companies...AF is independently audited, etc..

There are many, many, many, many important differences.

[mike]

When it comes to other forms of investing such as mutual funds, I wonder how important it is for Christians to get into the weeds of what the money is being used for.

I think it is important because we are to be good stewards of the resources God has entrusted to us.

If you care so much about the morality or ethics of specific stocks that an investment fund contains, why wouldn't you go out and pick the stocks yourself, or just loan your money directly to someone that can use it and who agrees with your worldview. Why use an investment bank at all that takes some of the returns as fees?

That is what the OP is about and what I have been posting about since. I've given the answers to these questions.

If I think of the time it takes to analyze in detail how exactly invested money is being used, I wonder if we are really chasing something that is worth our while. I think of some people who were highly concerned about this kind of thing, and feel like they were straining at gnats while swallowing camels. I don't have money to invest, and don't expect to any time soon, but if that time would come, I don't know whether I would necessarily invest in AF just because the money is being loaned to fellow Anabaptists, or to Everence, or other similar organizations.

I don't have a problem with taking the position that charging interest is wrong, but I can't make sense of that unless you are also against borrowing money at interest. I benefit both from interest-free loans and loans made at market rates of interest. Bank loans make it possible to do business and take advantage of opportunities, and save a person from much higher costs of renting assets such as buildings, vehicles, and equipment. If it's wrong to charge interest, then it should also be wrong to make a profit by renting out property or vehicles, because that is often much more profitable than simply loaning out money at interest. In fact, rental rates (for example, rent-to-own storage sheds) are often so high as to be downright predatory.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

I don't have a problem with taking the position that charging interest is wrong, but I can't make sense of that unless you are also against borrowing money at interest. I benefit both from interest-free loans and loans made at market rates of interest. Bank loans make it possible to do business and take advantage of opportunities, and save a person from much higher costs of renting assets such as buildings, vehicles, and equipment.

Same answer I give to Christians who don't believe in nonresistance. I benefit from the actions of the US military and local police force, yet I refuse to participate in such occupations.

Christian philosophers throughout the centuries have been responding to this same question. Aquinas has a robust argument for why the victim of usury is not sinning even though the usurer is. The first is a victim, the second is exploiting someone in need. The first is prey, the second a predator. It is easy to see how God condemns the perpetrator of a crime yet not the victim.

If it's wrong to charge interest, then it should also be wrong to make a profit by renting out property or vehicles, because that is often much more profitable than simply loaning out money at interest. In fact, rental rates (for example, rent-to-own storage sheds) are often so high as to be downright predatory.

I completely 100% agree. I myself refuse to engage in renting any property, whether it be money, food, house, land, tractor, you name it. "Do not lend at a profit, not money, nor food, nor anything that can be put up for usury." Consistency is the key to the Christian life. Finding loopholes is possible with the law, but not for followers of Jesus. Instead of renting out my excess property, my practice is to "lend without expecting anything in return."

[Southerner]

I don't have a problem with taking the position that charging interest is wrong, but I can't make sense of that unless you are also against borrowing money at interest. I benefit both from interest-free loans and loans made at market rates of interest. Bank loans make it possible to do business and take advantage of opportunities, and save a person from much higher costs of renting assets such as buildings, vehicles, and equipment.

Same answer I give to Christians who don't believe in nonresistance. I benefit from the actions of the US military and local police force, yet I refuse to participate in such occupations.

Christian philosophers throughout the centuries have been responding to this same question. Aquinas has a robust argument for why the victim of usury is not sinning even though the usurer is. The first is a victim, the second is exploiting someone in need. The first is prey, the second a predator. It is easy to see how God condemns the perpetrator of a crime yet not the victim.

If it's wrong to charge interest, then it should also be wrong to make a profit by renting out property or vehicles, because that is often much more profitable than simply loaning out money at interest. In fact, rental rates (for example, rent-to-own storage sheds) are often so high as to be downright predatory.

I completely 100% agree. I myself refuse to engage in renting any property, whether it be money, food, house, land, tractor, you name it. "Do not lend at a profit, not money, nor food, nor anything that can be put up for usury." Consistency is the key to the Christian life. Finding loopholes is possible with the law, but not for followers of Jesus. Instead of renting out my excess property, my practice is to "lend without expecting anything in return."

Me thinks you would make an excellent bruderhofer!

And "consistency is the key to the Christian life"? I am working to get "consistency" out of my vocabulary. It is worn out to me.