Civil War-again?

[JimFoxvog]

In this case, about 10,000 Benjamins. Somalians in MN defrauded the federal and state government (mostly federal) of about a billion dollars.

That's the story of anti-immigrants. I don't think it's holding up.

[Soloist]

State vs Federal is civil strife. May not be a war, but we are definitely in the civil strife stage.
https:

all about the benjamins. granted, there’s a lot of benjamins.
a lot of strife would fade away, if benjamins were removed.

Talk about anti-Semitism! And you temp, of all people. Why do you hate the Jews?

Wife: I thought he was a quaker. Or at least a former quaker. Perhaps she’s only a quaker faker hater

[JohnH]

In this case, about 10,000 Benjamins. Somalians in MN defrauded the federal and state government (mostly federal) of about a billion dollars.

That's the story of anti-immigrants. I don't think it's holding up.

https://www.wsj.com/us-news/law/minneso ... y-8433f648

The frauds totalled over a billion dollars.

In September, federal prosecutors charged eight defendants with illegally pocketing $300,000 to $400,000 each from a federally-funded program that provides housing for people with disabilities and substance-use disorders. Some defendants used the money for real estate in Kenya and luxury cars, prosecutors said. It was relatively easy for companies to enroll in the program, whose payouts ballooned from $21 million in 2021 to $104 million in 2024, prosecutors said.

The defendant and other company owners allegedly paid kickbacks to parents in the Somali community to enroll their children for treatment, including children who didn’t previously have an autism diagnosis, prosecutors alleged.

This isn't a partisan thing, either:

In October, Minnesota said the housing program was being terminated “due to widespread fraud.” Days earlier, Walz also paused payments for 14 state Medicaid programs and ordered a third-party audit of them to look for signs of “suspicious billing activity.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/29/us/f ... omali.html

How Fraud Swamped Minnesota’s Social Services System on Tim Walz’s Watch

Prosecutors say members of the Somali diaspora, a group with growing political power, were largely responsible.

...

Over the last five years, law enforcement officials say, fraud took root in pockets of Minnesota’s Somali diaspora as scores of individuals made small fortunes by setting up companies that billed state agencies for millions of dollars’ worth of social services that were never provided.

This is a rather major problem. Of the people indicted so far, about 93% are of Somali descent, despite only being about 1.5% - 2% of the state's population.

The prosecutions started under the prior administration:

The first public sign of a major problem in the state’s social services system came in 2022, when federal prosecutors began charging defendants in connection to a program aimed at feeding hungry children. Merrick B. Garland, attorney general during the Biden administration, called it the country’s largest pandemic relief fraud scheme.

State agencies reimbursed the group and its partners for invoices claiming to have fed tens of thousands of children. In reality, federal prosecutors said, most of the meals were nonexistent, and business owners spent the funds on luxury cars, houses and even real estate projects abroad.

Sorry, but I don't think defending people who defraud government grants to feed hungry kids are people who need defended. They're people who don't need to be in this country at all.

[Bootstrap]

This is a rather major problem. Of the people indicted so far, about 93% are of Somali descent, despite only being about 1.5% - 2% of the state's population.

That's a misleading way to use the statistics, though. 59 people have been convicted. Estimates on the number of Somalis in Minnesota vary. If Minnesota has 61,000 Somalis, that means that 0.01% of them were involved. If Minnesota has 87,000, that means that 0.068% were involved.

Let's think about things that describe 0.01% of Americans ...

About 0.01% of Americans will ....

1. Become a professional classical musician in a major orchestra
2. Reach the rank of Navy SEAL
3. Earn an Olympic medal or compete in the Olympics
4. Become a commercial airline pilot
5. Become a neurosurgeon
6. Work as a professional stage actor on Broadway

In each case, there are indeed Americans like that, but very few. How many people do you know in each of these categories? I know a few professional classical musicians, but not in major orchestras.

The same is true of Somalis in Minnesota involved in this scheme. Making all Somalis pay for the crimes of a very, very few is not just. Making all refugees pay for the crimes of one man is not just.

[JohnH]

This is a rather major problem. Of the people indicted so far, about 93% are of Somali descent, despite only being about 1.5% - 2% of the state's population.

That's a misleading way to use the statistics, though. 59 people have been convicted. Estimates on the number of Somalis in Minnesota vary. If Minnesota has 61,000 Somalis, that means that 0.01% of them were involved. If Minnesota has 87,000, that means that 0.068% were involved.

Let's think about things that describe 0.01% of Americans ...

About 0.01% of Americans will ....

1. Become a professional classical musician in a major orchestra
2. Reach the rank of Navy SEAL
3. Earn an Olympic medal or compete in the Olympics
4. Become a commercial airline pilot
5. Become a neurosurgeon
6. Work as a professional stage actor on Broadway

In each case, there are indeed Americans like that, but very few. How many people do you know in each of these categories? I know a few professional classical musicians, but not in major orchestras.

The same is true of Somalis in Minnesota involved in this scheme. Making all Somalis pay for the crimes of a very, very few is not just. Making all refugees pay for the crimes of one man is not just.

So, you’re saying only those convicted were involved?

[barnhart]

In the run up to the '24 election I taught a 12 week Sunday school class on the history of the church and power. Several attendees tried multiple times to press me into admitting who I would vote for if I were voting. I jokingly told them wait till the last class thinking they would forget, but they did not. So I rather reluctantly admitted for this election, if forced by law, would vote against the right because for this period, I suspect they have a clearer path to shepherding the church in bad directions.

When I read this forum and I see how easily xenophobia is defended and accepted as the norm, and how easily people on the fringes are dehumanized, I suspect my analysis was right.

[JohnH]

In the run up to the '24 election I taught a 12 week Sunday school class on the history of the church and power. Several attendees tried multiple times to press me into admitting who I would vote for if I were voting. I jokingly told them wait till the last class thinking they would forget, but they did not. So I rather reluctantly admitted for this election, if forced by law, would vote against the right because for this period, I suspect they have a clearer path to shepherding the church in bad directions.

When I read this forum and I see how easily xenophobia is defended and accepted as the norm, and how easily people on the fringes are dehumanized, I suspect my analysis was right.

I don't see anyone engaging in xenophobia on this forum.

I do think it needs to be frankly talked about that, amongst some groups of people, certain types of frauds or other problems seem to be much more common. What doesn't make sense is stating that that's a taboo topic and you aren't allowed to talk about it, and act like it's some kind of moral sin to even notice or think about it.

We'd be a lot better off if instead we could have talked openly about what kind of cultural baggage or social pressures might exist that make some diaspora group more likely to have its denizens end up in some kind of trouble, like committing mass Medicaid fraud. These kind of problems actually really hurt the diaspora community. What I find very strange is the attitude that even talking about these problems is somehow "dehumanizing" people. It isn't. If we consider Somalians to be human beings who are capable of agency, then we should be able to talk about how some (not all) of them engage in certain types of criminal activity at a far higher rate than anyone else, and we should also be able to talk about how we could fix that problem.

The alternative is that you make it verboten to even speak of, and then someone will eventually gain political power who just says "These people are a problem. Let's get rid of all of them."

[Bootstrap]

I don't see anyone engaging in xenophobia on this forum.

I do think it needs to be frankly talked about that, amongst some groups of people, certain types of frauds or other problems seem to be much more common. What doesn't make sense is stating that that's a taboo topic and you aren't allowed to talk about it, and act like it's some kind of moral sin to even notice or think about it.

I think you have frequently tried to shut that kind of conversation down or distract from the subject when it involves people who are actually doing those things on a much larger scale.

If financial fraud is your biggest concern, I think we have bigger fish to fry than a few Somalis. After all, white people who have been convicted of much worse crimes are being pardoned right and left. Do their convictions mean we need to be suspicious of all white people?

People involved in crimes should be brought to justice. People not involved in crimes should not be punished for other people's sins.

Looking at the title of this thread: Civil war is unlikely, but the kind of violence we had in the 1960s is quite likely, and if we spread hatred against groups of people, we are contributing to that. Blessed are the peacemakers.

[JohnH]

I don't see anyone engaging in xenophobia on this forum.

I do think it needs to be frankly talked about that, amongst some groups of people, certain types of frauds or other problems seem to be much more common. What doesn't make sense is stating that that's a taboo topic and you aren't allowed to talk about it, and act like it's some kind of moral sin to even notice or think about it.

I think you have frequently tried to shut that kind of conversation down or distract from the subject when it involves people who are actually doing those things on a much larger scale.

If financial fraud is your biggest concern, I think we have bigger fish to fry than a few Somalis. After all, white people who have been convicted of much worse crimes are being pardoned right and left. Do their convictions mean we need to be suspicious of all white people?

People involved in crimes should be brought to justice. People not involved in crimes should not be punished for other people's sins.

Looking at the title of this thread: Civil war is unlikely, but the kind of violence we had in the 1960s is quite likely, and if we spread hatred against groups of people, we are contributing to that. Blessed are the peacemakers.

I see you're doubling down on the "it's forbidden to notice things and talk about them". The end result of this, Boot, is that eventually a politician will notice, talk about it, and the result is much worse than if we just had a frank, honest, and open discussion in the first place.

[Bootstrap]

I don't see anyone engaging in xenophobia on this forum.

I do think it needs to be frankly talked about that, amongst some groups of people, certain types of frauds or other problems seem to be much more common. What doesn't make sense is stating that that's a taboo topic and you aren't allowed to talk about it, and act like it's some kind of moral sin to even notice or think about it.

I think you have frequently tried to shut that kind of conversation down or distract from the subject when it involves people who are actually doing those things on a much larger scale.

If financial fraud is your biggest concern, I think we have bigger fish to fry than a few Somalis. After all, white people who have been convicted of much worse crimes are being pardoned right and left. Do their convictions mean we need to be suspicious of all white people?

People involved in crimes should be brought to justice. People not involved in crimes should not be punished for other people's sins.

Looking at the title of this thread: Civil war is unlikely, but the kind of violence we had in the 1960s is quite likely, and if we spread hatred against groups of people, we are contributing to that. Blessed are the peacemakers.

I see you're doubling down on the "it's forbidden to notice things and talk about them". The end result of this, Boot, is that eventually a politician will notice, talk about it, and the result is much worse than if we just had a frank, honest, and open discussion in the first place.

Looks like the politicians are doing much worse than the people they are demonizing. And all that hate talk they are stirring up seems almost calculated to distract from what they are doing.

If they have evidence, let the politicians produce it in court, and let the guilty be convicted. If publicized hatred and retribution and shows of force and a police state replaces the justice system, we are all in trouble.

Which is the topic of this thread.

Then they came for the Somalis
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Somali

In the meantime, let's not do their work for them. It is not Kingdom work.