Civil War-again?

[JohnH]

At this point, it should be obvious there is no need for a declaration of war to, well, go to war. There wasn't in Vietnam, there wasn't one in Korea, and there hasn't been one in my lifetime.

It is a bit silly to claim it is unlawful or illegal for a President (often with the full support of Congress) to go engage in what is effectively a war without a formal declaration of war. It has been happening since 1945 since the Taiwan/China conflict, so there's a full 80 years of precedent. Neither the courts, the Supreme Court, or any Congress has found this to somehow be unlawful and certainly has not found orders given to soldiers to do such things to be unlawful.

If you don't like it, well, you can not like it, but your opinion is about as relevant as someone who claims the 16th amendment wasn't ratified properly and thus income taxes are unlawful.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Do you think the military should support a coup d'etat? Overturning the result of an election?

No. I think the military should remain under civilian control.

I'm unclear on what you mean of "the military ... support a coup d'etat" in this context. The President is the Commander in Chief, and nobody disagrees that he got elected as the result of the election.

Or do you believe the military must do whatever the President says, no matter what?

I don't think the military should start disregarding the civilian, democratic chain of command. Do you?

The LAW is king, not the president. If an order is given that is contrary to law, or contrary to the Nurenberg standards that we have retified as part of several trades, and therefor are the law of the land, than yes, they should refuse orders.

For the individual soldier,"just following orders" has not been an excuse since the standards that we used to judge the Germans and Japaneese have been in place.

[ken_sylvania]

All of the posts since my recent one, and there are quite a few, confirm my pov. I think most of you have a side, and then are searching for the arguments for your side and against the other.

Someone said this forum is supposed to be about history. Well, history is full of Presidents “breaking the law” and history the looks down on them sometimes and others salutes that “initiative”. Again, I am not taking sides in the pro/anti Trump stuff.

From Jackson ignoring SCOTUS and allowing the Cherokee to bee moved, to Lincoln suspending all sorts of rights he lack authority to suspend, to Roosevelt breaking all sorts of laws to help the Allies before our entry into the war, and countless more.

Personally, I felt very member of Congress should have been impeached when the US went into Iraq. Note, I am NOT saying a decision to go to war in Iraq would have been wrong (or right). But sending troops into what is OBVIOUSLY. A war in Iraq or Afghanistan, or Vietnam but LACKING THE courage DO YOUR JOB and vote UP or DOWN on a declaration of war should have been grounds for impeachment.

Yep.

[JohnH]

The LAW is king, not the president. If an order is given that is contrary to law, or contrary to the Nurenberg standards that we have retified as part of several trades, and therefor are the law of the land, than yes, they should refuse orders.

For the individual soldier,"just following orders" has not been an excuse since the standards that we used to judge the Germans and Japaneese have been in place.

Have there been any orders given that are unlawful that a solder should defy? That accusation keeps being tossed about.

Civilian control of the military exists for a reason. A military that decides to start ignoring the President and Congress is called a “coup”.

[Soloist]

The LAW is king, not the president. If an order is given that is contrary to law, or contrary to the Nurenberg standards that we have retified as part of several trades, and therefor are the law of the land, than yes, they should refuse orders.

For the individual soldier,"just following orders" has not been an excuse since the standards that we used to judge the Germans and Japaneese have been in place.

Have there been any orders given that are unlawful that a solder should defy? That accusation keeps being tossed about.

Civilian control of the military exists for a reason. A military that decides to start ignoring the President and Congress is called a “coup”.

Yes, there has. You just simply ignored them and dismissed them as not illegal orders.
And also, it wasn’t soldiers, but seamen.

[ohio jones]

Trump has repeatedly claimed he could deploy “Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines” into US cities if necessary.

Has this actually happened?

He says it has. Do you think he was lying?

Many people think he's a habitual liar. Do you think he was telling the truth on this issue for once?

[JohnH]

One would think that if active duty military were “deployed” in cities on some kind of mission (to do what?) it would both be obvious and reported in the news media.

[Soloist]

One would think that if active duty military were “deployed” in cities on some kind of mission (to do what?) it would both be obvious and reported in the news media.

Outside of things like hurricane Katrina, the guard gets deployed for all kinds of reasons and most of them never even pass to people’s radar, other than the locals.
Generally speaking, I have never heard of an active duty deployment in the United States, other than medical missions.
I would hazard a guess that it does happen, but we don’t know about it generally.

I’m speaking more modern times, because it definitely happened in the past. Things like the bonus army come to mind…

[JohnH]

One would think that if active duty military were “deployed” in cities on some kind of mission (to do what?) it would both be obvious and reported in the news media.

Outside of things like hurricane Katrina, the guard gets deployed for all kinds of reasons and most of them never even pass to people’s radar, other than the locals.
Generally speaking, I have never heard of an active duty deployment in the United States, other than medical missions.
I would hazard a guess that it does happen, but we don’t know about it generally.

I’m speaking more modern times, because it definitely happened in the past. Things like the bonus army come to mind…

I should have clarified I meant active duty military that is not the National Guard or state guards.

[Soloist]

It’s actually happened multiple times in our history, so possibly weird but not unheard of