It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
The European version removes Russia’s demand that Ukraine gives up the eastern Donbas region. The deal also removes a clause that would give the US 50 per cent of future profits from frozen Russian assets invested in Ukraine... The European counter-proposal says that “negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the line of contact” or front line... It proposes that Ukraine should receive a security guarantee from Washington similar to Nato’s Article 5 clause...
The Europeans want Russian sovereign assets to remain frozen until Moscow pays compensation for the immense damage it has caused since its full-scale invasion.
But still, reading over the European plan, it's basically just pushing back on some of the details of the US plan.
^^i hope this is correct and resolution will be found - soon!
The biggest hurdle is the mighty egos involved.
I find it silly to continue a blood feud dating back to the 1910s.
That’s what it is. Easy for outsiders to see through it. Rage and passions are powerful and dangerous emotions. To all around.
Neto wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 9:46 am I might add that the armies of both the Russian Republic ('White Russia') and the Bolsheviks (the 'Reds') fought against the efforts of Ukrainians to establish an independent state (after the collapse of the Russian Empire). The disregard of the Ukrainian people by the Russian people goes way back. Is it any surprise that Ukrainians do not find them trust-worthy, friendly neighbors?
Domestic disputes are of the most bitter and violent. Often being passionate fights to the death of all involved.
The answer is for each person to accept Christ, and put their swords away.
amen.
0 x
i’m perfectly comfortable with an older, wiser, more docile Trump.
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:46 am
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:46 am
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
Because that’s part of diplomatic negotiations. Obviously, Russia has conceded something.
mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:46 am
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
It gives me some whip lash. And what is curious is why Jared is meeting in Miami w Witkoff and Dimitriev. It appears the Gaza peace plan which Jared has a role in is not working very well.
mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:46 am
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
Because that’s part of diplomatic negotiations. Obviously, Russia has conceded something.
mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:46 am
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
Yes, it's so ridiculous. And this whole time at least three EU member states (Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic) have been regularly purchasing Russian oil, at the same time that other EU members have been sending money and weapons to Ukraine. International relationships are pretty confusing- like the relationship of China and the US which has basically been more rocked by Trump's tariffs than it has been by the fact that China is supporting Russia and the US is supporting Ukraine in the conflict. It's almost like they both consider the Russia-Ukraine war as sort of a sideshow, and maybe in the grand scheme of things it is.
The peace plans basically call for Ukraine, Russia, and NATO to all act like nothing has happened, and every 'ambiguity' from the past 30 years is to be considered cleared up. I wonder what kind of dream world this could happen in.
I wish that, just like the plans call for elections in Ukraine, they would call for elections in Russia, because Putin is the biggest problem in this whole conflict.
Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 12:37 pm
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
Because that’s part of diplomatic negotiations. Obviously, Russia has conceded something.
Obviously??? Pray tell, what has Russia conceded?
The security guarantees, which look pretty robust on paper anyway, have got to be something that Putin would not prefer.
That said, the actual carrying out of the plan depends on future US presidents, who may simply not care what happens to Ukraine in the future. And in such a case, just like happened with Germany after WW1, the western nations could just let another round of aggression happen without invoking the peace agreement until it was too late to prevent a world war. Versailles wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Neither will any peace plan be now that isn't followed through in the years to come.
mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:46 am
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
Why one month are leaders of the free world talking about authorizing Tomahawk missiles against Russia, and the next month talking about reentry of Russia into the international community with little consequences? Why do they want Russia to reenter the international community?
Yes, it's so ridiculous. And this whole time at least three EU member states (Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic) have been regularly purchasing Russian oil, at the same time that other EU members have been sending money and weapons to Ukraine. International relationships are pretty confusing- like the relationship of China and the US which has basically been more rocked by Trump's tariffs than it has been by the fact that China is supporting Russia and the US is supporting Ukraine in the conflict. It's almost like they both consider the Russia-Ukraine war as sort of a sideshow, and maybe in the grand scheme of things it is.
The peace plans basically call for Ukraine, Russia, and NATO to all act like nothing has happened, and every 'ambiguity' from the past 30 years is to be considered cleared up. I wonder what kind of dream world this could happen in.
I wish that, just like the plans call for elections in Ukraine, they would call for elections in Russia, because Putin is the biggest problem in this whole conflict.
I'm not that intellectually fluid either. It still seems to much the same as it was 2014, nations shouldn't invade and occupy neighbors.
barnhart wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:59 pm
I'm not that intellectually fluid either. It still seems to much the same as it was 2014, nations shouldn't invade and occupy neighbors.
I agree that this is the general rule by which nations should follow. Except that the OT is full of examples of God punished nations by allowing other nations to conquer them. So I feel a need to always allow for this possibility.
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
barnhart wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 8:59 pm
I'm not that intellectually fluid either. It still seems to much the same as it was 2014, nations shouldn't invade and occupy neighbors.
“Shouldn’t” implies some kind of school principal we can go appeal to. Who is going to enforce “nations shouldn’t invade and occupy neighbors”?
And who decides what constitutes a nation’s borders anyway?
