Trust of the congregation by the ministry in conservative Mennonite Churches

[Neto]

In respect to comments about the fact that ordaining the man effectively 'ordains' his wife as well, here's an observation from a setting where pastors were paid, men who had felt a call to ministry, especially those who started this trajectory before marriage. I knew some women students who felt a call to "pastor's wife". Some actually broke off 'special friendships' because the man involved decided that he was NOT called to a pastoral ministry. This is a level of dedication to what these sisters saw as their calling that is, I think, admirable.

In our setting now ("lay ministry") I have seen some minister's wives whose engagement in any type of ministry in the congregation is minimal, if any at all. (No involvement in children's ministry, like SS classes, DVBS, etc. No women's ministry.) Others are very much involved, demonstrating, perhaps, the gifting that they had all along. Were they already involved in these types of ministry before their husbands were ordained? That is a question to which I do not know the answer. I'm just not that observant of who is doing what.

[Ernie]

It would seem an obvious solution would just to be to ordain a lot more men (effectively ordaining the wives too); in particularly, wi the bishops, there should be no trepidation about ordaining lots and lots of ministers and deacons. Then they could all share in the load. Perhaps one deacon is gifted at teaching. He could preach more services. Another minister and his wife seem skilful at counseling, so they could take on that burden. Another is older and likes to travel, so he’s a good fit for committee assignments and preaching revival services.

I've long advocated for this. I don't know where to find the thread where we discussed this at length in the past.

That could work, but in our current system, it is likely to just make for more busy men. This was a critique that was offered a year or two ago when our ministry suggested adding a minister or deacon. We have since ordained two more men, for a total of five in a congregation of about 140-150, and I would say that this is probably what has happened. Yes, we have more men that can preach and more men to sit on oversight boards. It might free up some time for the ordained men individually. But they are all still quite busy, and we now have yet more more men who have less time available than they used to for normal social relationships in the church.

What would be needed in a lot of cases is not just more ordained men, but a new way of seeing the office and of structuring responsibilities and also relationships with other churches, which consumes quite a bit of leaders' energy in the conference structure.

Yes, using the current systems probably won't solve much. New understandings and restructuring along with more ordained folks would be needed. I'm fine with thoughtful and careful "appointments" for specific oversight roles instead of ordaining as such, if a church prefers less ordained people. What I am not ok with is voting in the popular people or with everybody taking turns at things. That is what seems to take a church on a race to the lowest common denominator.

[mike]

Yes, using the current systems probably won't solve much. New understandings and restructuring along with more ordained folks would be needed. I'm fine with thoughtful and careful "appointments" for specific oversight roles instead of ordaining as such, if a church prefers less ordained people. What I am not ok with is voting in the popular people or with everybody taking turns at things. That is what seems to take a church on a race to the lowest common denominator.

What I think works well is ordained leaders who are like Jesus - who have actual authority accompanied by a servant-leadership mentality, and who trust, live at the same level with, and put to work in the kingdom those who are under their leadership.

Could you describe what you mean by 'a race to the lowest common denominator'? I've had years of experience and observation in churches where lay persons and ordained men alike take turns at many things such as teaching Sunday school and preaching, and I can't think of anything I've seen that I would characterize as a race to something.

[Ernie]

Yes, using the current systems probably won't solve much. New understandings and restructuring along with more ordained folks would be needed. I'm fine with thoughtful and careful "appointments" for specific oversight roles instead of ordaining as such, if a church prefers less ordained people. What I am not ok with is voting in the popular people or with everybody taking turns at things. That is what seems to take a church on a race to the lowest common denominator.

What I think works well is ordained leaders who are like Jesus - who have actual authority accompanied by a servant-leadership mentality, and who trust, live at the same level with, and put to work in the kingdom those who are under their leadership.

I agree.

Could you describe what you mean by 'a race to the lowest common denominator'? I've had years of experience and observation in churches where lay persons and ordained men alike take turns at many things such as teaching Sunday school and preaching, and I can't think of anything I've seen that I would characterize as a race to something.

The winds are always against the church. Satan either tries to harass the church with persecution until it gives up. Or he tries to put the church to sleep. Or he tries to get a church calloused to the needs around them. Or he tries to get the church to adopt false doctrine. Or he tries to stir up dissension. Or he tries to get the church to become comfortable with the world.
Sound doctrine and sound men leading the church can help stave off all these things except for persecution.

If the congregation has a bent towards the world, itching ears, or dissension, someone needs to help head this off. Allow the wrong people to have influence and it tends toward a neutralization of whatever good goals the leaders have for the church. The leaders end up reluctantly "following" the congregation instead of leading.
The race may not be immediately apparent but in the course of 5, 10 or even 20 years, the results are obvious. I call that a race to lowest common denominator. I'm not talking about the lowest that can be imagined in a Christian church, but lowest in terms of what can actually be held on to and expected in the church. Sometimes this is referred to as lowering the bar.
So I guess I could say, "a race to lower the bar a few inches or a few feet". No one actually thinks they are doing this who is involved, and not everyone who is not involved can really see it. But look in the rearview mirror some years down the road and the observant will see it. Those involved will think of it as progress.

There are all sorts of problems in most Old Order and Ultra-conservative groups (the new Old Orders) and there is a lot of variation between congregations and constituencies, but in a general way, it seems to me that at least they maintain most of what they stood for 50 years ago. They aren't losing a lot of ground overall. In general, they are still helping their neighbors if there is a housefire. They are still canning chicken for poor people around the world, And a good percentage are making it clear to those around them, whether by word or deed, that this world is not their home. They are still keeping the same doctrines thanks to their ancient statements of faith. They are still teaching their children to obey promptly, to respect their elders, to help with family chores, etc.
Give some in the congregation who are drinking from the wrong wells, a place of influence, and they will introduce a different doctrinal slant, contentions, or new ways to train children. And the result is a spiral or race toward the lowest common denominator.

[Ernie]

I've been part of and known churches who didn't really have men who met the scriptural qualifications for deacons and elders. But they believed in having ordinations. "Were big boys and big boys have ordinations." So they go ahead and have ordinations, but the churches struggle and struggle. This kinds of churches happen whenever people get the idea that "we are all priests unto God and we all have the Spirit" so anyone can start churches. You won't find this ideology in churches that are careful about sound doctrine, who vet people for influential positions, and who believe that authority is both earned and affirmed by the Lord and the church.

[mike]

I've been part of and known churches who didn't really have men who met the scriptural qualifications for deacons and elders. But they believed in having ordinations. "Were big boys and big boys have ordinations." So they go ahead and have ordinations, but the churches struggle and struggle. This kinds of churches happen whenever people get the idea that "we are all priests unto God and we all have the Spirit" so anyone can start churches. You won't find this ideology in churches that are careful about sound doctrine, who vet people for influential positions, and who believe that authority is both earned and affirmed by the Lord and the church.

Fascinating. I think I'll start a new thread on the topic of starting churches. I value your thoughts on these issues and appreciate the time you invest in replying.