German Classes

[Szdfan]

John, I’ve read your posts carefully. You’ve argued that language divisions are divinely ordained, that worship in unfamiliar languages is meaningless, and that efforts to bridge those divides are misguided. I’m responding to that reasoning, not inventing a “false JohnH.”

I said that worship in Latin (a dead language very few people understand) is meaningless. Because it is.

I also made the observation that a congregation requires functioning in a specific language (or occasionally, 2 languages), and that a congregation doesn't function unless the people who go to use a mutually intelligible language. This is such a basic, obvious fact, yet it seems to run counter to some deeply held ideologies.

Like it or not, God created division by language at Babel, and he has yet to see any reason to remove it. If he did, we'd all go back to having one universal language. We haven't.

John, you accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then you literally restate what I quoted. You deny my summary is true and then repeat it almost word for word.

I know you believe that linguistic and cultural differences that separate humans are ordained by God. I think you're deeply and profoundly wrong about that. I think those divisions are real, but I don't think scripture supports the argument that they are sacred or that's what God wants. I think you confuse description for prescription. Babel describes the fallenness of the world, not divine intentions or commandments. Scripture is the story of God healing and redeeming what sin has fractured.

[ohio jones]

Like it or not, God created division by language at Babel, and he has yet to see any reason to remove it. If he did, we'd all go back to having one universal language. We haven't.

Do you attribute the lack of success of Esperanto to divine intervention, or might there be other factors?

[JohnH]

Like it or not, God created division by language at Babel, and he has yet to see any reason to remove it. If he did, we'd all go back to having one universal language. We haven't.

Do you attribute the lack of success of Esperanto to divine intervention, or might there be other factors?

It wasn't close enough to the pre-Babel language spoken in the Garden of Eden, which one Dutch philosopher asserted was the same as a dialect spoken in Antwerp.

[ohio jones]

Like it or not, God created division by language at Babel, and he has yet to see any reason to remove it. If he did, we'd all go back to having one universal language. We haven't.

Do you attribute the lack of success of Esperanto to divine intervention, or might there be other factors?

It wasn't close enough to the pre-Babel language spoken in the Garden of Eden, which one Dutch philosopher asserted was the same as a dialect spoken in Antwerp.

Well then, we should all be like the OP and take German classes, since as any Amishman can tell you, when God spoke to Adam in the Garden, He said "Wo bist du?"

[JohnH]

I actually had someone tell me in all seriousness he was fairly certain the original language spoken was similar to German, particularly PA Dutch, and cited that ancient Indo-European was the closest to German, and so forth. He offered to get me a printed up essay about it and I wish I’d accepted.

[Neto]

I actually had someone tell me in all seriousness he was fairly certain the original language spoken was similar to German, particularly PA Dutch, and cited that ancient Indo-European was the closest to German, and so forth. He offered to get me a printed up essay about it and I wish I’d accepted.

A girl I worked with in a soap factory in Minnesota said that The Bible was originally written in English, and that Greek is "just speaking in tongues".

[Bootstrap]

I actually had someone tell me in all seriousness he was fairly certain the original language spoken was similar to German, particularly PA Dutch, and cited that ancient Indo-European was the closest to German, and so forth. He offered to get me a printed up essay about it and I wish I’d accepted.

The Oera Linda Book (1870, Netherlands) claimed that the original world language was Old Frisian (close to PA Dutch / Low German). But I think the Antwerp claim probably comes from Johannes Goropius Becanus’ Origines Antwerpianae (1569), which claims that Dutch/Flemish (specifically Brabantish) is the Adamic or pre-Babel language. He basically argues that:

• The oldest language must be the simplest.
• The simplest language is the one with the shortest, most monosyllabic words.
• Brabant Dutch has more short words than Latin, Hebrew, Greek, etc.

And therefore:

• Brabant Dutch was spoken in Eden
• Antwerp is closer to the cradle of humanity than the Middle East
• Hebrew is a corruption of original Dutch roots

This is only part of this very weird and fascinating book, which claims to be a chronicle kept by a line of Frisian families from ca. 2200 BCE – AD 803. You can see it here:

https://ia802804.us.archive.org/3/items ... tegoog.pdf

You can actually find echoes of this in some Amish sermons. I'm not saying that most Amish believe this, but things like this have been said by some preachers:

𝔇𝔦𝔢 𝔞𝔩𝔱 ℜ𝔢𝔡𝔢 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔙ä𝔱𝔢𝔯 𝔦𝔰 𝔡𝔦𝔢 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔩𝔦𝔠𝔥𝔱𝔢 ℜ𝔢𝔡𝔢.
𝔇𝔦𝔢 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔩𝔦𝔠𝔥𝔱𝔢 ℜ𝔢𝔡𝔢 𝔦𝔰 𝔟𝔢𝔦 𝔊𝔬𝔱𝔱, 𝔲𝔫 𝔫𝔦𝔱 𝔟𝔢𝔦 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔚𝔢𝔩𝔱.
𝔚𝔞𝔫𝔫 𝔡𝔦𝔢 ℜ𝔢𝔡𝔢 𝔰𝔦𝔠𝔥 𝔳𝔢𝔯𝔞̈𝔫𝔡𝔢𝔯𝔱, 𝔰𝔬 𝔳𝔢𝔯𝔞̈𝔫𝔡𝔢𝔯𝔱 𝔰𝔦𝔠𝔥 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔖𝔦𝔫𝔫 𝔲𝔫 𝔡𝔞𝔰 ℌ𝔢𝔯𝔷.
𝔐𝔦𝔯 𝔰𝔬𝔩𝔩𝔢 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔴𝔢𝔱𝔷𝔢 𝔴𝔦𝔢 𝔡𝔦𝔢 𝔄𝔩𝔱𝔳𝔞𝔱𝔢𝔯 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔴𝔢𝔱𝔷𝔢, 𝔲𝔫 𝔫𝔢𝔱 𝔴𝔦𝔢 𝔡𝔦𝔢 𝔚𝔢𝔩𝔱 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔴𝔢𝔱𝔷𝔱;
𝔡𝔢𝔫𝔫 𝔡𝔦𝔢 𝔄𝔩𝔱𝔳𝔞𝔱𝔢𝔯 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔴𝔢𝔱𝔷𝔢 𝔳𝔬𝔯 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔙𝔢𝔯𝔴𝔦𝔯𝔯𝔲𝔫𝔤, 𝔲𝔫 𝔡𝔦𝔢 𝔚𝔢𝔩𝔱 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔴𝔢𝔱𝔷𝔱 𝔫𝔬𝔠𝔥 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔙𝔢𝔯𝔴𝔦𝔯𝔯𝔲𝔫𝔤.
𝔇𝔯𝔲𝔪 𝔥𝔞𝔩𝔱𝔢𝔱 𝔡𝔦𝔢 𝔰𝔠𝔥𝔩𝔦𝔠𝔥𝔱𝔢 ℜ𝔢𝔡𝔢, 𝔡𝔞𝔪𝔦𝔱 𝔪𝔦𝔯 𝔯𝔢𝔦𝔫 𝔟𝔩𝔢𝔦𝔟𝔢 𝔲𝔫 𝔱𝔯𝔢𝔲.

From MS Dg-1815, “Dienerbuch (Lancaster County),” c. 1815–1825, in the Lancaster Mennonite Historical Society Archives.

This particular sermon explicitly links Deitsch to the language spoken before Babel:

The old speech of the fathers is the plain speech.
The plain speech is with God, and not with the world.

When the speech changes, then the mind and the heart change as well.

We should speak as the forefathers spoke, and not as the world speaks;
for the forefathers spoke before the confusion,
and the world speaks after the confusion.

Therefore, hold fast to the plain speech,
that we may remain pure and faithful.

So there you have it, Josh, a reason for you to learn another language

[JohnH]

I actually had someone tell me in all seriousness he was fairly certain the original language spoken was similar to German, particularly PA Dutch, and cited that ancient Indo-European was the closest to German, and so forth. He offered to get me a printed up essay about it and I wish I’d accepted.

A girl I worked with in a soap factory in Minnesota said that The Bible was originally written in English, and that Greek is "just speaking in tongues".

You've had the most interesting types of jobs in all kinds of places.

[Neto]

I actually had someone tell me in all seriousness he was fairly certain the original language spoken was similar to German, particularly PA Dutch, and cited that ancient Indo-European was the closest to German, and so forth. He offered to get me a printed up essay about it and I wish I’d accepted.

A girl I worked with in a soap factory in Minnesota said that The Bible was originally written in English, and that Greek is "just speaking in tongues".

You've had the most interesting types of jobs in all kinds of places.

I was working my way through Bible college....