German Classes

[JohnH]

German is kind of pointless to learn since it is quite rare to run into a German speaker who can't communicate in English.

I can think of several reasons I personally have found to study German:
1. German is my family's heritage language
a. It makes genealogical research easier.
2. German is my church's heritage language
a. Church records were kept in German
b. Church doctrine was recorded in German
c. Early Anabaptist writings are in German
d. Anabaptist hymns are written in German
e. I remember my grandfather quoting German passages of Scripture in order to remember how he should say it in English.
3. Personal interest and goals
4. A desire to travel.
a. I've been to Germany, even my rudimentary understanding of the language was incredibly helpful.

I'm quite aware of the difference of dialects between the Ausbund, Martin Luther's Bible, the spoken language of American Anabaptist and the current spoken dialects in Germany. I have found studying one has been helpful in the others.

Seems to me like your statement is entirely subjective. Bigfoot, if you have a desire to learn German, go for it. Even if others deem it pointless.

I meant for trying to communicate with people. Unless you want to learn German fluently, a typical German speaker will be better able to communicate with you in English, and will probably choose to do so. (You'll notice I haven't said the same thing about French Canadians or French speakers.)

I also find the obsession amongst some Anabaptists with the German language to be quite off-putting, but then again, I don't generally find myself to obsessing over ancestry, pedigree, or genealogies, and in fact believe we warned to avoid "endless genealogies". If you live in Germany, Austria or Switzerland, or one of the handful of other places it is widely spoken, by all means learn German. It seems beyond pointless for an American.

[temporal1]

Neto:
A person who only speaks one language is called an American.

i’m not sure, but suspect, one reason English is dominant is because English speakers butcher other languages so brutally, others defer to English to avoid the pain of listening.

English dominates because the British Empire controlled a huge chunk of the world and American pop culture dominates internationally.

Americans mangle other languages because we’re entitled, don’t learn other languages and as John so aptly demonstrated, expect foreigners to do the hard work and accommodate us.

Well, yes. Québécois might be more obnoxious than Americans, as JH points out, at least they try.
i presume JH is fluent in Australian, English, American, Canadian ..

“No.” in 8 easy English forms.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNG0AicMGw7/

Americans are uncouth and annoying. Still.
Charming, generous, energetic, u$eful. If not studious, in understandably adolescent ways.

[seinetsodumm]

I meant for trying to communicate with people. Unless you want to learn German fluently, a typical German speaker will be better able to communicate with you in English, and will probably choose to do so. (You'll notice I haven't said the same thing about French Canadians or French speakers.)

I also find the obsession amongst some Anabaptists with the German language to be quite off-putting, but then again, I don't generally find myself to obsessing over ancestry, pedigree, or genealogies, and in fact believe we warned to avoid "endless genealogies". If you live in Germany, Austria or Switzerland, or one of the handful of other places it is widely spoken, by all means learn German. It seems beyond pointless for an American.

We obviously interact with different people. I don't know anyone who is obsessed with either the German language or their genealogy. I know people who are interested in studying both (I personally am as well). Interests in a subject is quite different than an obsession with said subject.

I'm aware of Titus 3:9; context is important.

[Szdfan]

English dominates because the British Empire controlled a huge chunk of the world and American pop culture dominates internationally.
Americans mangle other languages because we’re entitled, don’t learn other languages and as John so aptly demonstrated, expect foreigners to do the hard work and accommodate us.

Exactly where did I demonstrate that?

Do you read your own writing?

Look at the comparison you make between Quebec and Germany:

It would be significantly easier to function in Germany only knowing English versus Quebec only knowing English; in particular a lot of jobs in Quebec will simply not conduct any business in English. You can send an email or even speak to a colleague in English, and they'll understand you, but respond in French.
Whereas in an office in Germany sometimes I forgot English wasn't the prevailing language. During technical discussions often two native German speakers would simply talk to each other in English since the subject matter is so English-dominated.

In neither example, however, do you offer the solution of learning another language. The problem with Quebec is that they refuse to accommodate a non-French speaker. The good thing about Germany is that they did accommodated you and spoke English. You place the responsibility to communicate on foreigners and you never suggest that you might also learn their language.

You even argue that it's "pointless" to learn German as a second language because so many Germans speak English:

German is kind of pointless to learn since it is quite rare to run into a German speaker who can't communicate in English.

You call the Latin mass "a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense" and the "definition of meaningless," even though it was the primary form of worship for countless of Christians for a millennium.

The Latin Mass is an interesting example, because it actually proves my point that Christians worshiped meaningfully for over a millennium in a language that wasn’t their first.

I do not consider reciting a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense "worshipping meaningfully". It is, indeed, rather the definition of meaningless.

The Latin mass isn't incomprehensible nonsense to millions of Catholics throughout history, it's only nonsense because you don't understand it.

So yes, in these posts, in this thread, you do demonstrate an expectation that foreigners will do the work to accommodate you and if they don't, you reject it as "incomprehensible nonsense."

I think this discomfort with difference is helping to drive a theology that says differences and separation between people is divinely mandated. I don't believe the Bible argues that at all.

[Neto]

I wish that I knew some Latin - enough to be able to figure out what each abbreviation stands for, so I could transcribe an old document into modern text. (In order to use an on-line translator to get the document into Portuguese, so that I can read it. I would trust the on-line translator to get it fairly correct going into another Latin language, but not into English.)

[Szdfan]

I wish that I knew some Latin - enough to be able to figure out what each abbreviation stands for, so I could transcribe an old document into modern text. (In order to use an on-line translator to get the document into Portuguese, so that I can read it. I would trust the on-line translator to get it fairly correct going into another Latin language, but not into English.)

I have a friend in prison who is passing time by learning Latin, Greek and Hebrew. He jokes about the getting a job in a deal language when he gets out, but I think it has been an incredibly important thing for him to do during an extremely difficult time. It's helped him get back to faith.

[temporal1]

I wish that I knew some Latin - enough to be able to figure out what each abbreviation stands for, so I could transcribe an old document into modern text. (In order to use an on-line translator to get the document into Portuguese, so that I can read it. I would trust the on-line translator to get it fairly correct going into another Latin language, but not into English.)

Purely accidental, i took 2 years of Latin in junior high public school.
Latin was still recommended for all interested in study of medicine. i believe Latin mass was still common. i was forbidden to ask about Catholicism (in my family). i had school friends who were Catholic. and other religions, and atheists. We didn’t discuss faith.

i got a lot out of it, i felt it helped my language skills overall for decades after. i entered the class casually, left with no regrets.
if there was a vote, i’d vote for 2 years of Latin in public school as a language requirement.

i believe the spiritual aspect of Christianity transcends time+space+language. Esp written language.
Most early believers were illiterate, and weren’t immediately called Christians. When they were, it was intended as a defamation, and could be life threatening.

We love the written word/Word. Evenso, we’re more of the Spirit than tangible words.

(i believe) this is what Jesus speaks of in scriptures. He is territorial about it. Sorting out earthly differences is His domain.

[JohnH]

In neither example, however, do you offer the solution of learning another language.

Can you stop putting words in my mouth? I never said that.

The problem with Quebec is that they refuse to accommodate a non-French speaker.

I never said this was a "problem". When I lived there, I took it upon my self to learn French, including un-learning the rather useless Parisian phrases and manner of speaking I learned and re-learned the Quebecois style.

The good thing about Germany is that they did accommodated you and spoke English. You place the responsibility to communicate on foreigners and you never suggest that you might also learn their language.

Did I ever say it was a good thing?

You even argue that it's "pointless" to learn German as a second language because so many Germans speak English:

Yes, I think for most Americans, German is not a very useful language to learn. (Making some assumptions that a typical Anabaptist-esque on this board sort of person is in North America.) In America, if you want to improve communicating with the kind of people you are likely to meet, Spanish would obviously be the top choice.

You call the Latin mass "a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense" and the "definition of meaningless," even though it was the primary form of worship for countless of Christians for a millennium.

Latin is literally a dead language. There are no native speakers of it who learn it as their mother tongue. Conducting worship services in it is patently absurd, as was conducting Masses in it for years with a populace who had no idea what was being said.

The Latin mass isn't incomprehensible nonsense to millions of Catholics throughout history, it's only nonsense because you don't understand it.

Let's just look at America up util the Novus Ordo reforms. Most people did not understand Latin in America. Yet Masses were conducted in it, until the Catholic Church finally had the good sense to repent and conduct Masses in languages people can actually understand.

I think this discomfort with difference is helping to drive a theology that says differences and separation between people is divinely mandated. I don't believe the Bible argues that at all.

I don't think I've said that all, nor have I expressed "discomfort with difference". Szdfan, I really wish you'd stop erecting a false JohnH that is everything you dislike and then denouncing it. I wish you would take some time to actually listen to and understand the content and intent of my posts.

[Szdfan]

In neither example, however, do you offer the solution of learning another language.

Can you stop putting words in my mouth? I never said that.

The problem with Quebec is that they refuse to accommodate a non-French speaker.

I never said this was a "problem". When I lived there, I took it upon my self to learn French, including un-learning the rather useless Parisian phrases and manner of speaking I learned and re-learned the Quebecois style.

The good thing about Germany is that they did accommodated you and spoke English. You place the responsibility to communicate on foreigners and you never suggest that you might also learn their language.

Did I ever say it was a good thing?

You even argue that it's "pointless" to learn German as a second language because so many Germans speak English:

Yes, I think for most Americans, German is not a very useful language to learn. (Making some assumptions that a typical Anabaptist-esque on this board sort of person is in North America.) In America, if you want to improve communicating with the kind of people you are likely to meet, Spanish would obviously be the top choice.

You call the Latin mass "a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense" and the "definition of meaningless," even though it was the primary form of worship for countless of Christians for a millennium.

Latin is literally a dead language. There are no native speakers of it who learn it as their mother tongue. Conducting worship services in it is patently absurd, as was conducting Masses in it for years with a populace who had no idea what was being said.

The Latin mass isn't incomprehensible nonsense to millions of Catholics throughout history, it's only nonsense because you don't understand it.

Let's just look at America up util the Novus Ordo reforms. Most people did not understand Latin in America. Yet Masses were conducted in it, until the Catholic Church finally had the good sense to repent and conduct Masses in languages people can actually understand.

I think this discomfort with difference is helping to drive a theology that says differences and separation between people is divinely mandated. I don't believe the Bible argues that at all.

I don't think I've said that all, nor have I expressed "discomfort with difference". Szdfan, I really wish you'd stop erecting a false JohnH that is everything you dislike and then denouncing it. I wish you would take some time to actually listen to and understand the content and intent of my posts.

John, I’ve read your posts carefully. You’ve argued that language divisions are divinely ordained, that worship in unfamiliar languages is meaningless, and that efforts to bridge those divides are misguided. I’m responding to that reasoning, not inventing a “false JohnH.”

[JohnH]

John, I’ve read your posts carefully. You’ve argued that language divisions are divinely ordained, that worship in unfamiliar languages is meaningless, and that efforts to bridge those divides are misguided. I’m responding to that reasoning, not inventing a “false JohnH.”

I said that worship in Latin (a dead language very few people understand) is meaningless. Because it is.

I also made the observation that a congregation requires functioning in a specific language (or occasionally, 2 languages), and that a congregation doesn't function unless the people who go to use a mutually intelligible language. This is such a basic, obvious fact, yet it seems to run counter to some deeply held ideologies.

Like it or not, God created division by language at Babel, and he has yet to see any reason to remove it. If he did, we'd all go back to having one universal language. We haven't.