Is Jesus for “Law & Order?”

[Southerner]

I think that was one of the central questions I wanted to dig into with my original post. As much as this thread has gone down the bunny trail, I think the argument that separation of people by culture and language is part of God’s divine plan is an excellent example of how worldly political order gets confused with God’s intentions and plans.

Yes, there are Scriptures like Romans 13 that instruct believers to obey the government, but there are plenty of other scriptures of defiance and prophetic criticism towards unjust powers. Moses confronts Pharoah. Nathan confronts David. The Old Testament prophets confront Israel’s kings. Jesus declares the truth to Pilate. I think this tension between obedience and prophecy embodies the challenge of what it means to be faithful under human power and authority.

If separating people by language isn’t part of what God has ordained and enforced upon men, then why hasn’t God un-confused our languages?

God did with the invention of Google Translate. I rely on it at my biz when I talk to truckers. The last driver was from Uzbekistan...I really like learning about other countries.

[Bootstrap]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I agree with all that you said. However, all of these things (justice, peace, refugees,, law, order, etc...)can be done with borders and nations that God put in place to establish nations.

Deuteronomy 32:8 says
[8] “When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples..."

Yes, I was misunderstanding you. Thanks for correcting me. I spent a little time looking at boundaries in the Old Testament, and boundaries, boundary stones, national borders, clear ownership of wells, etc. are important. For instance:

Numbers 20:14–21: when Israel approached Edom during the wilderness journey, Moses sent messengers requesting safe passage—“Please let us pass through your country… we will not drink water from wells”—and when Edom refused, Israel turned away.

Deuteronomy 2:4–9, 19: God explicitly told Israel not to harass or take land from Edom, Moab, or Ammon because their territories were divinely allotted to them.

In the New Testament, I think that borders can be seen as the Romans 13 authority that God has given to government. Of course, God does judge nations and rulers according to how they use that authority.

Nations and borders in and of themselves are not wrong. How we treat the people within our borders matters and we should be caring for the stranger and foreigners who reside within our nation...after all, we are of the same blood, yet many nations (Acts 17:26). That doesn't mean nations are wrong in God's eyes. A nation doesn't mean foreigners are excluded...a nation includes multiple ethnic groups within it, much like Israel had foreign peoples within its borders in the OT era. But a nation with borders is not necessarily defined by a homogeneous people group within its border.

I agree. All of that is very biblical.

[Bootstrap]

They did have a language in common - Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic. And most international churches also have a language in common, often English. People tend to form friendships both within and across ethnic groups.

In other words, English becomes the dominant language, effectively a liturgical language, with native English speakers of course being at the top of the pecking order.

I do not consider this part of God’s design.

Are you opposed to the use of Greek in the New Testament Church? Are you offended that the New Testament was written in Greek? Do you think that wiped out the cultural and linguistic differences in the church?

Paul urged Greeks to value Jews and vice versa. Good international churches rely on all of the languages and cultures they have. The English you hear spoken from up front is not always perfect. Services may contain more than one language, with translation into others. I have had extremely meaningful relationships with people who don't speak particularly good English. I have had similarly good relationships with people who do not speak English much at all, relying on my rather lousy skill in their language. I'm sure God was in that.

I have also been blessed by worship in languages I do not understand at all.

[Bootstrap]

If separating people by language isn’t part of what God has ordained and enforced upon men, then why hasn’t God un-confused our languages?

That question relies on what makes sense to you or me personally to discern God's will. I don't find that kind of "common sense" argument a reliable guide. It bypasses Scripture.

Some better questions:

1. Why don't we see God separating people by language in the New Testament church? Why does Pentecost start with building a church from people who speak a wide variety of languages, from very different places?

2. What does Paul mean when he says:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

3. What does Paul teach Jews about Greeks in Romans? What does he teach Greeks about Jews? He spends eleven chapters showing that both stand on equal ground before God, united by grace.

4. Why was it offensive for Peter to not eat with Gentiles in Galatians? Why did Paul see that as a denial of the Gospel itself? Because refusing table fellowship contradicted the new creation in Christ (Eph 2:14–16).

5. What does the Revelation depict about our unity in worship before the throne of God?

“A great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb” (Rev 7:9).

The Gospel doesn't erase difference, but it does reconcile very different people to each other in Christ. Worship is a big part of that, I think.

[Bootstrap]

There is a community in Taizé, France, that hosts prayer services many times every day, and youth from many countries come there to spend a week in worship. They sing short, meditative songs, in a variety of languages, and there are booklets that translate the songs so you know what you are singing. In the course of a week, you might learn to understand most of the words well even if you don't know the languages. I have been very blessed by worship at Taize, and by fellowship with people from many countries there.

https://www.taize.fr/en/

They have short sermons and prayers that are translated into several languages. Most are in French, Latin, or German, and an awful lot of people in Europe will understand one of these languages. But many are in other languages. This is one way to welcome people from many languages to worship together.

Here's a link to many of their songs, with translations:

https://archives.taize.fr/en_article10308.html

Some videos:

English:



German:



Latin:



Spanish:



French:



German:



Russian:

[Bootstrap]

Another model I have seen in many Protestant churches: multiple services in different languages, with overlap. People who speak each language also participate in services in other languages. Leadership is shared. Potlucks are shared.

In an English service, people may also learn a Swahili hymn or a Spanish hymn as a way of expressing unity.

[JohnH]

God did with the invention of Google Translate. I rely on it at my biz when I talk to truckers. The last driver was from Uzbekistan...I really like learning about other countries.

... so God decided to wait 4,000 years after Babel to invent Google Translate?

[JohnH]

Another model I have seen in many Protestant churches: multiple services in different languages, with overlap. People who speak each language also participate in services in other languages. Leadership is shared. Potlucks are shared.

In an English service, people may also learn a Swahili hymn or a Spanish hymn as a way of expressing unity.

And none of that changes anything I said. God has still ordained that people speak mutually unintelligible languages, and indeed a formerly mutually intelligible dialect continuum tends to, over time, become mutually unintelligible. Sometimes, God ordains that people speak in tongues / have interpretation of tongues, and then language barriers temporarily disappear. This very rarely, if ever, happens today. God seems to be ordaining that language barriers remain.

There is no evidence at all that Babel is being reversed, and I don't see anywhere in scripture that it teaches us that it is (the existence of Google Translate notwithstanding, the greatest impact of which is that there will be less need for people to learn common trade languages). All of my points still stand that a typical, healthy congregation will have one dominant language.

You could perhaps make a case for a truly bilingual congregation, but even then, all you have done is construct a congregation that still has a dominant language: it just has two of them side-by-side. The top 20 languages spoken by over half of the world are never all going to exist side-by-side on equal footing in any congregation meeting a reasonable definition of "congregation".

The idea "leadership is shared" in a multilingual congregation is also ridiculous - either the leadership is entirely bilingual (a new kind of elitism), or else leadership is fluent in one of the languages, which in reality is the more elite language. But I agree that it's possible to have potlucks with people who can't communicate with each other. I think church is about more than potlucks, though.

Ultimately, the person who thinks they can reverse Babel is as sinful and wicked as the original architects of Babel.

[Bootstrap]

In other words, English becomes the dominant language, effectively a liturgical language, with native English speakers of course being at the top of the pecking order.

In most places where many languages are spoken, there are dominant languages, at least for specific purposes. There might be one dominant language in the market and another dominant language for government and education, for instance. In northern India, Hindi is the dominant language, the dominant language in various parts of Africa might be English, French, or Swahili.

I once heard a Bible translator give a speech called "What is my heart language?" His father and mother had different mother tongues, he spoke a third language in the market, a fourth language in elementary and high school, and a fifth in college. He used all of these languages for different purposes, and felt at home in all of them. In most places where people speak many smaller languages, many people are multilingual.

In the United States, English is clearly the dominant language. It doesn't have to be "the liturgical language", but it's probably important for communicating across language barriers for people who live here. Not everyone speaks English well, but some do.

[Bootstrap]

Another model I have seen in many Protestant churches: multiple services in different languages, with overlap. People who speak each language also participate in services in other languages. Leadership is shared. Potlucks are shared.

In an English service, people may also learn a Swahili hymn or a Spanish hymn as a way of expressing unity.

And none of that changes anything I said. God has still ordained that people speak mutually unintelligible languages, and indeed a formerly mutually intelligible dialect continuum tends to, over time, become mutually unintelligible.

Actually, people do learn other people's languages. The entire Bible is full of people communicating with each other even though they grew up speaking different languages. Moses spoke both Hebrew and Egyptian. People negotiated across languages, welcomed refugees across languages, married across languages ... Babel did not establish some law that two people who speak different languages can't learn each other's language or communicate with each other meaningfully.

If we want to know what God ordained, it's probably good to respond to the biblical arguments people are making, taking the Bible seriously.

I think God ordained the New Testament.