Valerie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 6:44 am I think that Christ is for law and order. I don’t think he is for the kind of rioting that we witness where people get hurt.
I want to dig into this a bit. Is Jesus really for “law and order” or did his life, death and resurrection challenge the laws and orders of the world he was born in? Does the Kingdom of God confront or comfort worldly power and society’s hierarchies?
Which scriptures point in either direction?
While this is an inherently political discussion, I’d like this thread to stick to theology and not partisan politics. I think this is a topic much bigger than US politics.
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"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."
Law and order is a function of civil government, or in New Testament parlance, the kingdoms of this world. Jesus came to usher in the kingdom of God.
There is interaction between the kingdoms, but it is a fraught relationship and Jesus and his followers certainly are not always in harmony with “law and order.”
Valerie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 6:44 am I think that Christ is for law and order. I don’t think he is for the kind of rioting that we witness where people get hurt.
I want to dig into this a bit. Is Jesus really for “law and order” or did his life, death and resurrection challenge the laws and orders of the world he was born in? Does the Kingdom of God confront or comfort worldly power and society’s hierarchies?
Which scriptures point in either direction?
While this is an inherently political discussion, I’d like this thread to stick to theology and not partisan politics. I think this is a topic much bigger than US politics.
Jesus said quite plainly give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s.
Likewise we have commands to submit to those in authority.
I would say Jesus was quite willing to ignore laws that were contrary to the Kingdom and we we should be to.
In the lifetime of my parents, their neighbors were using the law and order argument to justify racial segregation. I grew up around people who still felt God's law and order was being violated by "interracial" marriage. Just saying God is "for" law and order is not a faithful interpretation of Scripture. There is a robust theology of God's people being freed from abusive law and order as well as an apocalyptic vision of a future where the law and order of this world fades away in significance as all things are made new.
This leaves God's people in a tension, obey and respect until it violates the authority of the Kingdom of Jesus. It's a narrow path and many good people have fallen off it.
barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 9:58 am
In the lifetime of my parents, their neighbors were using the law and order argument to justify racial segregation. I grew up around people who still felt God's law and order was being violated by "interracial" marriage. Just saying God is "for" law and order is not a faithful interpretation of Scripture. There is a robust theology of God's people being freed from abusive law and order as well as an apocalyptic vision of a future where the law and order of this world fades away in significance as all things are made new.
This leaves God's people in a tension, obey and respect until it violates the authority of the Kingdom of Jesus. It's a narrow path and many good people have fallen off it.
An obvious question, then, is why God decided to divide humanity into different ethno-linguistic groups, and apparently has continued to decide this is how he wants humanity organised to this day.
Scriptures regarding obeying the law & being “in order” please?
We could otherwise suggest He (and Scripture) would be fine with disobeying the law and okay with disorder.
I wholeheartedly agree if law conflicts with Scripture we choose obedience to Scripture, yet even here at times it’s subject to interpretation of what that may mean.
barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 9:58 am
In the lifetime of my parents, their neighbors were using the law and order argument to justify racial segregation. I grew up around people who still felt God's law and order was being violated by "interracial" marriage. Just saying God is "for" law and order is not a faithful interpretation of Scripture. There is a robust theology of God's people being freed from abusive law and order as well as an apocalyptic vision of a future where the law and order of this world fades away in significance as all things are made new.
This leaves God's people in a tension, obey and respect until it violates the authority of the Kingdom of Jesus. It's a narrow path and many good people have fallen off it.
An obvious question, then, is why God decided to divide humanity into different ethno-linguistic groups, and apparently has continued to decide this is how he wants humanity organised to this day.
Wife: Well… There’s Rahab, Bathsheba, Esther married a Persian, Joseph married an Egyptian and Moses got harassed for marrying an Ethiopian, possibly Moabite (and Miriam ended up with leprosy). The only thing in the Bible says is that they must be united in the Lord.
There were no laws against it in the Old Testament, as long as the person was a Jew in belief. Timothy got harassed because his father was a Greek, but Paul says pretty clear that we are all one in Jesus Christ
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Besides, if God wanted us to stay segregated in our own little ethnolinguistic groups, why did he gave people the gift of tongues and why did he tell them to go out into all nations and preach the gospel?
barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 9:58 am
In the lifetime of my parents, their neighbors were using the law and order argument to justify racial segregation. I grew up around people who still felt God's law and order was being violated by "interracial" marriage. Just saying God is "for" law and order is not a faithful interpretation of Scripture. There is a robust theology of God's people being freed from abusive law and order as well as an apocalyptic vision of a future where the law and order of this world fades away in significance as all things are made new.
This leaves God's people in a tension, obey and respect until it violates the authority of the Kingdom of Jesus. It's a narrow path and many good people have fallen off it.
An obvious question, then, is why God decided to divide humanity into different ethno-linguistic groups, and apparently has continued to decide this is how he wants humanity organised to this day.
Wife: Well… There’s Rahab, Bathsheba, Esther married a Persian, Joseph married an Egyptian and Moses got harassed for marrying an Ethiopian, possibly Moabite (and Miriam ended up with leprosy). The only thing in the Bible says is that they must be united in the Lord.
There were no laws against it in the Old Testament, as long as the person was a Jew in belief. Timothy got harassed because his father was a Greek, but Paul says pretty clear that we are all one in Jesus Christ
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Besides, if God wanted us to stay segregated in our own little ethnolinguistic groups, why did he gave people the gift of tongues and why did he tell them to go out into all nations and preach the gospel?
I don’t see any evidence God wants us all to use a universal language and become some kind of “blob” of a single people group.
An obvious question, then, is why God decided to divide humanity into different ethno-linguistic groups, and apparently has continued to decide this is how he wants humanity organised to this day.
Wife: Well… There’s Rahab, Bathsheba, Esther married a Persian, Joseph married an Egyptian and Moses got harassed for marrying an Ethiopian, possibly Moabite (and Miriam ended up with leprosy). The only thing in the Bible says is that they must be united in the Lord.
There were no laws against it in the Old Testament, as long as the person was a Jew in belief. Timothy got harassed because his father was a Greek, but Paul says pretty clear that we are all one in Jesus Christ
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Besides, if God wanted us to stay segregated in our own little ethnolinguistic groups, why did he gave people the gift of tongues and why did he tell them to go out into all nations and preach the gospel?
I don’t see any evidence God wants us all to use a universal language and become some kind of “blob” of a single people group.
Wife: nobody is forcing anybody to. Just saying that God does not seem to be against interracial marriage. I think He cares more about what your future spouse believes than what they look like.
Nowhere do I find in scripture, the thought that all the diverse, ethnic, and national peoples are to meld into 1 national identity. Even in the last chapters of the Bible (Rev 21, 22) it always refers to "nations" in plural form...not "nation" in singular form.
Peter Gentry, in his book "Kingdom through Covenant", states his opinion that God cursed the nations for their rejection of Him at the Tower of Bable...and now (according to Gentry) is slowly reversing the curse by bringing us into 1 nation and back to pre-Babel. This didn't make sense to me because I dont find that anywhere in scripture. It seems to me that Gods plan was to put diverse nations and borders in place for the peoples, yet humanity rebelled. Borders and nations are currently antagonistic, of course, which isn't Gods design...but that doesn't mean they have to be that way.
The Church is something entirely different. Its not restricted to borders and nations or ethnic groups...I think the theonomist would like us to think otherwise. But we would have to come to something extra biblical in order to establish "one nation" in Gods plans.
