Christian Nationalism

[JohnH]

I'm having a hard time understanding people who say America's government shouldn't follow Christian principles.

Here are some Christian principles:

- Telling the truth instead of lying
- Not being warmongers and not running around killing people.
- Being kind to the downtrodden and caring about the poor

I don't think it's somehow an improvement for a government to embrace deception and lying, even though doing so would mean it would be less "Christian nationalist". I don't see what's wrong with wanting a Christian nation, in the sense of a "nation" being a "group of people". I think it's good for people not to lie and kill.

No, those are not explicitly Christian principles. They are basic moral principles with which many religions (Buddhism, for example) would agree. America's government should of course do a better job of following them, but that would not in any sense make America "Christian."

I would argue they certainly are, because all good things and all good morals come from our creator God. If other world religions share some of those things, that simply reflects the influence Christianity has had on them, and by “Christianity” I include the religion of people who followed God like Noah, Abraham, and David.

[barnhart]

I think the views of just an outspoken few should not be generalized and used as a label to broadly mischaracterize the average patriot who goes to church and cares for his family. Those that I know don’t trust the government either. They appreciate the Constitution but not the politicians who misuse language to deceive the public.

Fair. This is not quite what I have in mind when I speak about rising trends of Christian Nationalism. The element that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck is the justification of the use state coersive power for Jesus. This allergy should be a gift Anabaptists have to contribute to the American Church. We were once refugees on these shores driven out by state sponsored violence by churchmen in the name of Jesus and his church.

Baptists were at one time killed, branded or driven out by Americans as well. I think they have forgotten.

[JohnH]

I think the views of just an outspoken few should not be generalized and used as a label to broadly mischaracterize the average patriot who goes to church and cares for his family. Those that I know don’t trust the government either. They appreciate the Constitution but not the politicians who misuse language to deceive the public.

Fair. This is not quite what I have in mind when I speak about rising trends of Christian Nationalism. The element that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck is the justification of the use state coersive power for Jesus. This allergy should be a gift Anabaptists have to contribute to the American Church. We were once refugees on these shores driven out by state sponsored violence by churchmen in the name of Jesus and his church.

Baptists were at one time killed, branded or driven out by Americans as well. I think they have forgotten.

It’s an interesting leap to go from there to claiming we should promote secular liberalism, which has been one of the most violent empires the planet has ever seen, even if it does make life very comfortable for Anabaptists.

[Heirbyadoption]

Josh Hawley quotes...
“We are a nation forged from Augustine’s vision…Augustine’s Christian nationalism has been the boast of the West.”

With respect to context, the content of the above quotes ought to make any self-respecting and semi-educated American Anabaptist Christian cringe. Few things have harmed the cause of Christ more throughout history than Constantinian compromise and Augustine's vision... I continue to wonder if many of my more patriotic friends have really thought through what can potentially happen in this nation and for believers when another election or three rolls around and the reins of power slip from their grasp once again...

[barnhart]

Josh Hawley quotes...
“We are a nation forged from Augustine’s vision…Augustine’s Christian nationalism has been the boast of the West.”

With respect to context, the content of the above quotes ought to make any self-respecting and semi-educated American Anabaptist Christian cringe. Few things have harmed the cause of Christ more throughout history than Constantinian compromise and Augustine's vision... I continue to wonder if many of my more patriotic friends have really thought through what can potentially happen in this nation and for believers when another election or three rolls around and the reins of power slip from their grasp once again...

Fourth century, Constantine - emblematic christianity
Fifth century, Augustine - institutional christianity
Eighth century, Charlemagne - imperial christianity

Each was possible only by building on the foundations of the predecessor.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Fourth century, Constantine - emblematic christianity
Fifth century, Augustine - institutional christianity
Eighth century, Charlemagne - imperial christianity

Each was possible only by building on the foundations of the predecessor.

You're forgetting that the chain doesn't end there. Charlemagne's institution of the Holy Roman Empire was the first Great Reign. Otto Von Bismark was the second Great Reign. This long line of tradition culminated in a third Great Reign (or "Reich" as the newest inheritor called it) that showed the world the end result of this whole project of Christian Nationalism. Those who held on to culture and identity outside of the National Christian one (especially Jews, who lived in "Christian lands" but clung to a non-Christian identity) were, to say the least, poorly treated.

Those who know history know that "Christian Nationalism" is about the farthest thing from the Kingdom that Jesus envisions for us.

[JohnH]

Fourth century, Constantine - emblematic christianity
Fifth century, Augustine - institutional christianity
Eighth century, Charlemagne - imperial christianity

Each was possible only by building on the foundations of the predecessor.

You're forgetting that the chain doesn't end there. Charlemagne's institution of the Holy Roman Empire was the first Great Reign. Otto Von Bismark was the second Great Reign. This long line of tradition culminated in a third Great Reign (or "Reich" as the newest inheritor called it) that showed the world the end result of this whole project of Christian Nationalism. Those who held on to culture and identity outside of the National Christian one (especially Jews, who lived in "Christian lands" but clung to a non-Christian identity) were, to say the least, poorly treated.

Those who know history know that "Christian Nationalism" is about the farthest thing from the Kingdom that Jesus envisions for us.

... and the next step in this long line of tradition is the modern, secular, liberal super-state.

[barnhart]

I didn't forget, I just held back a little to leave room for people to think and draw their own conclusions. But yes, I agree history is repleat with additional examples of this phenomenon. God's people do not like living vulnerably in the world.

[JohnH]

I didn't forget, I just held back a little to leave room for people to think and draw their own conclusions. But yes, I agree history is repleat with additional examples of this phenomenon. God's people do not like living vulnerably in the world.

I view people arguing in favor of state-imposed secular liberalism to not really be substantially different than those stumping for Christian Nationalism (whatever that is - it appears to be a fringe movement; R. J. Rushdoony, David Chilton, and Gary North are all deceased). If anything, the most ardent critics of "Christian Nationalism" on the Christian side of things make impassioned please for how good a the secular liberal state is, and why as Christians we should definitely want states to be secular and liberal.

I find the whole exercise quite revealing. In my Bible, it doesn't tell us to advocate for any particular sort of government, outside of a few vague commands like "honor the king".

[JohnL]

I think the views of just an outspoken few should not be generalized and used as a label to broadly mischaracterize the average patriot who goes to church and cares for his family. Those that I know don’t trust the government either. They appreciate the Constitution but not the politicians who misuse language to deceive the public.

Fair. This is not quite what I have in mind when I speak about rising trends of Christian Nationalism. The element that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck is the justification of the use state coersive power for Jesus. This allergy should be a gift Anabaptists have to contribute to the American Church. We were once refugees on these shores driven out by state sponsored violence by churchmen in the name of Jesus and his church.

Baptists were at one time killed, branded or driven out by Americans as well. I think they have forgotten.

We haven’t forgotten. We just realize we aren’t the only ones. That all Christian groups have been persecuted just like Jesus. Even today there’s the torture and murder of Christians in Africa, etc.

Also I don’t like the idea that any government can claim to be the only “correct” Christian identity and use govt powers to persecute others. Don’t like that idea at all. I notice a pattern that whenever a power group uses labels to segregate a group away from others it almost always leads to a demotion of equality and human rights for the labeled and segregated groups. I think that Christians should try to avoid using the same labeling tactics in order to be separate from the broad path to perdition.