Is faith supposed to judge politics?

[JohnH]

Maybe, but this is a political culture wars source, we can't see the original tweet,

Yes we can. Perhaps you should search a little harder.

and we don't have the perspective of the Baptist church elders. I imagine some of us have been part of churches where someone left or was kicked out, and their stories did not resemble any reality we were aware of. There's zero evidence besides the say-so of someone who is very aggrieved.

I think excommunicating someone for a political tweet means the church is indeed engaging in politics: dictating what political opinions its member are and aren't allowed to have.

According to the Blaze article:

When asked how serious this offense was, the elders told Keene he was on “the path of discipline,” meaning he would be removed from membership if he continued on his present course, he explained. Keene described the removal process as a very serious step in a Baptist church.

They are “basically saying, ‘We don't think you’re a Christian any more because you haven't repented of a sin,'” he said.

So we have a member of a church going to a political culture wars site and asking them to put the church on trial. From a 1 Corinthians 6 perspective, that kind of stinks.[/quote]

Boot, he got kicked out of his church for holding a political opinion that we shouldn't have more H1-B visa holders entering the country. That's a political opinion I happen to hold too. Should churches excommunicate people for holding that opinion?

In this particular case, they wanted him to issue a public statement to the contrary - basically dictating that he had to hold certain political views.

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

... he didn't take it before a secular court?

He just told his story, publicly. What's wrong with that?

If his church wants to, they can share their side of the story, too.

Are we asking The Blaze to judge disputes in our churches? And when The Blaze weighs in, are Christians supposed to pile on?

No. It's a journalistic outlet. They're simply reporting on something that happened.

Boot, do you think it's OK for people to be church members and accepted at communion who hold an opinion we shouldn't have more H1-B visa holders admitted to the country?

Do you think it's OK for people who think we should have more H1-B entrants allowed to attend communion and be church members?

[temporal1]

Since the 1980s, “white evangelical Protestant” has become a standard political category in political surveys because of consistent Republican alignment (75–80% since 2004).

Is there something wrong with that? ..

oof. proof that if one looks long+hard enough, any desired stat can be found?

[Praxis+Theodicy]

If you are a Kingdom Christian, it is an unavoidable reality that the gospel is, at it's very core, a political message.

This is both (1) a reason to avoid worldly political parties and secular power, and (2) a reason that Christian can never refrain from their political witness.

To say that all "politics" is worldly and is seperate from faith is to adopt the feeble Evangelical model of Christianity, where we say a sinner's prayer and then show up to church every Sunday. If we ar Kingdom Christians, then we base all our choices (how we dress, how/who we interact with, what work and hobbies we take on, etc.) on the central fact of our existence: the VERY political statement that Jesus is Lord.

Repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Could you please define "political" and "political message" as used in the text above? I suspect people mean different things by these words, and that makes it easy to misunderstand each other.

"Political" refers to a realm beyond the individual and the individual's domain. It refers to powers, decisions, opinions, etc. that affect a multitude of people under a certain category (a "jurisdiction"), like, say, the borders of a country or of a city.

"All authority in Heaven and Earth has been given to me" is a Poppypolitical statement made by Jesus. "Jesus is Lord" is essentially the same political statement made by his followers. These statements are political because they involve an area of effect that is larger than the individual or family. Despite what some modern brands of Christianity might try to preach, Jesus isn't Lord "of my heart". He is Lord of everything in Heaven and Earth. I just choose to submit my heart to His Lordship instead of being in rebellion against it. But his lordship is an ontological fact regardless of my choice in the matter. That means it is not an individual matter, but a political matter.

Jesus's teachings were profoundly political. In their messaging ("The Kingdom of Heaven") and their content (non-swearing of oaths, nonresistance, etc), they forced people to consider radically different ways of identifying toward and behaving in the world.

Jesus did not set up a community like the essenes or a synagogue like the pharisees or a resistance force like the zealots. He set up an ecclesia. This word, which is commonly translated "church" basically means a political body. The closest examples we would have to an "ecclesia" would be the US Congress, or maybe a town counsel meeting. It referred to a group of people who came together to discuss political situations and make political decisions. That is what an Ecclesia is. The word doesn't mean anything else except what modern Christians have made it to mean ("a house of worship"). Jesus' message centered on the Kingdom he established, and he apparently thought his Kingdom would need an Ecclesia to keep it in order while he is away.

[barnhart]

There was a serviceable Greek word commonly used for religious, inward focused gathering but Jesus deliberately chose the word used for public policy producing political assemblies.

[barnhart]

In my 20's I worked with a young man from an evangelical family who had fallen into the cult world of Amway. He detailed how they shifted over time from Amway as a side business to primary business to consuming their entire lives. They eventually quit going to church at all since upper level Amway meetings were over weekends and included a built in church service.

The mix of faith, industry, economics, social investment and patriotism that I heard him describe in Amway (short for The American Way) truly reminded me of the authority claim Rome laid on the early church and he seemed like a first or second century believer struggling against it with his belief in Jesus.

This is why the truth claims of Jesus are political, because they will not nest comfortably with the truth claims of the empire.

[barnhart]

accidental double post...

[Robert]

Since the 1980s, “white evangelical Protestant” has become a standard political category in political surveys because of consistent Republican alignment (75–80% since 2004).

That makes me a conservative, not a Republican. I support more stances of the Republican party then stances of the Democratic party, thus when I vote, I tend to vote more Republican, but I do not consider myself one. If the Republican Party shifts more of its stances, I would not votes for them.

[Bootstrap]

There was a serviceable Greek word commonly used for religious, inward focused gathering but Jesus deliberately chose the word used for public policy producing political assemblies.

I assume you’re talking about ekklesia and synagōgē?

Ekklesia was the word for the civic assembly in a Greek city, but it’s also the word the Septuagint used for Israel’s covenant gatherings before God (qāhāl in Hebrew). Synagōgē usually translated ʿēdāh, which refers to the local congregation. By Jesus’ day it had become the term for the synagogue as an institution.

So when Jesus says “my ekklesia,” he’s drawing on both meanings: Israel’s sacred assembly and the public, world-facing role of a civic body. That’s why in the NT ekklesia can mean a local congregation or the whole people of God. It was never meant as a private, inward circle. It’s a public assembly under God’s reign.

[Bootstrap]

Since the 1980s, “white evangelical Protestant” has become a standard political category in political surveys because of consistent Republican alignment (75–80% since 2004).

That makes me a conservative, not a Republican. I support more stances of the Republican party then stances of the Democratic party, thus when I vote, I tend to vote more Republican, but I do not consider myself one. If the Republican Party shifts more of its stances, I would not votes for them.

As you know, I won't join a political party or contribute to one for just this reason. I think Christians need to be independent of political parties.

To me, the word "conservative" can be confusing because it can refer to either (1) political conservatives or (2) Christians who believe in the authority of the Bible. I am conservative in the biblical sense.

The meaning of the first sense has changed fairly dramatically over my lifetime. Reagan conservatism is not Trump conservatism, both are a little different from George Bush's compassionate conservatism. It seems to be a flexible label that can adapt to the needs of the current political movements, sometimes taking opposite positions from previous "conservatism" on fairly key positions, but keeping the word "conservative".

I think this part is important:

But many who identify as evangelical in polls don’t attend church or hold orthodox beliefs. So “evangelical” is often mostly as a cultural or political identity. That's very different than it was in the time before Reagan.

Whatever "conservative" means in political circles, it's not the same thing as biblical Christianity. And I think it's important to avoid muddling our identity with a secular political one.

[JohnH]

In Anabaptist circles, when see a Trump bumper sticker appear on someone's truck we will tsk-tsk among ourselves that "that family is turning liberal". (And it turns out they were.)