Christian Nationalism

[Szdfan]

Just a side note. I encourage everyone I meet to never use the word fascist. It truly has no actual meaning so it conveys nothing outside its use in historical settings of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy or Phalangest Spain.

I am not defending “fascism”, I am saying it has no effective meaning aside from a sort of name calling.
Even the three historical governments that self identified as fascist were completely different in terms of legitimacy, economics, how the country worked in the mechanisms of government, indeed even foreign policy.

The point being the many assumed characteristics of fascism are equally, but mixed, found in other actual forms of government.
It is like the modern use of the word stupid. It does not truly mean a certain failing intellect but rather just a generic pejorative.

Use words that have clear meaning.

I agree that using the term “fascist” as a label isn’t helpful and it’s overused, but I disagree that it’s meaningless. Historians and political scientists generally identify a clear set of recurring characteristics among fascist regimes, including:

1) Ultranationalism and a mythic past
2) Cult of personality around the leader
3) Identification of enemies and scapegoating
4) Mass propaganda and disinformation
5) Disdain for democratic norms and institutions
6) “Law and order” as moral purity, with violence seen as cleansing
7) Militarization of politics
8) Corporate cronyism and loyalty-based economics
9) Merging of state and religion

Not every authoritarian regime exhibits all of these characteristics and not every movement that shows some of them becomes fully fascist. Trumpism shares several of these characteristics, especially the leader cult, scapegoating, and mythic nationalism, but it also operates within a still-functioning democratic system that has significant limits.

[barnhart]

Christian nationalism is the conviction that secularism is a failed experiment, that societies require a transcendent grounding in order to be able to function at all. And as a Christian, I believe that that transcendent ground should be the living God and not an idol.

That would be my short-form definition of Christian nationalism. Even shorter would be: Christian nationalism is the conviction that we should stop making God angry.

Doug Wilson in an interview with Ross Douthat.

I'm quite curious how you feel about these definitions. This looks like a textbook example of what I am concerned is coming our way.

[temporal1]

^^i have to catch up on posts following P.1.

HK,
i appreciate everything you’re saying.

Altho i’m a worrier, maybe by trait, definitely by my worrying parents, who so feared any of us coming to harm (before vaccines and other modern medical miracles) Doubting Thomas/Didymus, may be my fav apostle, he’s so human and real, i love him so,
i simultaneously believe doubt is a poor witness. Humans wrestle with faith.

HK:
.. That is to say, as problematic as our system may be, a system that at the very least acknowledges the existence of God,
bears fruit that is far superior to a system that pretends to an unattainable value-neutrality.

After much formal dedicated experimenting over decades, i believe “results are in”.

[joshuabgood]

Christian nationalism is the conviction that secularism is a failed experiment, that societies require a transcendent grounding in order to be able to function at all. And as a Christian, I believe that that transcendent ground should be the living God and not an idol.

That would be my short-form definition of Christian nationalism. Even shorter would be: Christian nationalism is the conviction that we should stop making God angry.

Doug Wilson in an interview with Ross Douthat.

I'm quite curious how you feel about these definitions. This looks like a textbook example of what I am concerned is coming our way.

In so far as one is willing to take these sentences purely at face value, I say, I affirm all of the above.

The pivotal distinction is, what is a Christian nation/state? That is, what is a Christian Kingdom where Christ reigns? I'd warrant it is nothing like the USA, with the key distinction being, the lever of the Christian state and redemption is the way of the cross and not the way of the sword. The way of love and not the way of hate. The way of giving and not receiving.

Additionally it has nothing to do with a geopolitical area marked by artificial "borders."

Wilson's natinoalism, means, using "anti-Christ" levers to usher in a puritanical (literally) regime premised on bloodshed and violence as supposed levers of salvation. His ilk literally joke about bringing back the methodologies of the worst sorts of Protestant and Catholic abuses. That version of a nation-state (is not Christian for one) and has been tried and been horrible for all, including Christians.

To be a Christian nation, the said nation must actually act and look like Christ.

[PeterG]

Doug Wilson in an interview with Ross Douthat.

I'm quite curious how you feel about these definitions. This looks like a textbook example of what I am concerned is coming our way.

In so far as one is willing to take these sentences purely at face value, I say, I affirm all of the above.

The pivotal distinction is, what is a Christian nation/state? That is, what is a Christian Kingdom where Christ reigns? I'd warrant it is nothing like the USA, with the key distinction being, the lever of the Christian state and redemption is the way of the cross and not the way of the sword. The way of love and not the way of hate. The way of giving and not receiving.

Additionally it has nothing to do with a geopolitical area marked by artificial "borders."

Wilson's natinoalism, means, using "anti-Christ" levers to usher in a puritanical (literally) regime premised on bloodshed and violence as supposed levers of salvation. His ilk literally joke about bringing back the methodologies of the worst sorts of Protestant and Catholic abuses. That version of a nation-state (is not Christian for one) and has been tried and been horrible for all, including Christians.

To be a Christian nation, the said nation must actually act and look like Christ.

I've been thinking along similar lines. To the extent that Wilson's "transcendent ground" cannot be identified with the living God revealed in Jesus, it, too, is an idol.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have symbolic dominance over others.

[Ernie]

I've been thinking along similar lines. To the extent that Wilson's "transcendent ground" cannot be identified with the living God revealed in Jesus, it, too, is an idol.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have symbolic dominance over others.

And we do know that worshipping idols does make God angry.

[Szdfan]

I'm quite curious how you feel about these definitions. This looks like a textbook example of what I am concerned is coming our way.

In so far as one is willing to take these sentences purely at face value, I say, I affirm all of the above.

The pivotal distinction is, what is a Christian nation/state? That is, what is a Christian Kingdom where Christ reigns? I'd warrant it is nothing like the USA, with the key distinction being, the lever of the Christian state and redemption is the way of the cross and not the way of the sword. The way of love and not the way of hate. The way of giving and not receiving.

Additionally it has nothing to do with a geopolitical area marked by artificial "borders."

Wilson's natinoalism, means, using "anti-Christ" levers to usher in a puritanical (literally) regime premised on bloodshed and violence as supposed levers of salvation. His ilk literally joke about bringing back the methodologies of the worst sorts of Protestant and Catholic abuses. That version of a nation-state (is not Christian for one) and has been tried and been horrible for all, including Christians.

To be a Christian nation, the said nation must actually act and look like Christ.

I've been thinking along similar lines. To the extent that Wilson's "transcendent ground" cannot be identified with the living God revealed in Jesus, it, too, is an idol.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have symbolic dominance over others.

So is it safe to say that Wilson and other Christian Nationalists are going way beyond HK’s appreciation of a civic acknowledgement that God exists?

[temporal1]

Christian nationalism is the conviction that secularism is a failed experiment, that societies require a transcendent grounding in order to be able to function at all. And as a Christian, I believe that that transcendent ground should be the living God and not an idol.

That would be my short-form definition of Christian nationalism. Even shorter would be: Christian nationalism is the conviction that we should stop making God angry.

Doug Wilson in an interview with Ross Douthat.

i appreciate time stamps (below).
Others must listen faster than i. i’m about half-thru the video.

Christian Nationalism vs Clown World | Interesting Times with Ross Douthat / 1hr 16min

“Doug Wilson, Evangelical pastor and self-proclaimed Christian nationalist,
has been preaching for decades that America needs to reclaim its Puritan past.
But in 2025, he believes he’s “significantly” more influential.
Does that mean America is closer to Wilson’s goal of theocracy?
In this episode, nothing is off limits — even Ross’s own salvation.”

01:37 - Doug Wilson's vision for a Christian nation
09:20 - Wilson’s ideal theocratic republic
20:21 - Theocracy and religious diversity
38:35 - Christendom and slavery
48:19 - How far does Wilson’s influence go in a “clown world”?
1:02:07 - Calvinism activism and quietism

So is it safe to say that Wilson and other Christian Nationalists are going way beyond HK’s appreciation of a civic acknowledgement that God exists?

yes. even half-thru the video.

[JayP]

I stick to my guns. Fascist is as meaningful as supercalfragalistic

Sz listed 8 or 9 characteristics. They ALL applied to Communist China under both Mao and now Winnie the Pooh (a nickname he despises). No one describes China as fascist. It proves my point. Authoritarianism exists in and outside of Fascism. Not ONE of the traits ypu listed OR EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY that combined list, while true of those historical states, does not immediate mean, oh that is fascism.

Heck, my favorite point about historical fascism is that Hilters government was completely legal while In Duce literally seized power and had no legal legitimacy. And Franco simply won a civil war.

Using the rem in American politics of the 21st century is wrong. I do NOT mean this as a defense of Trump. Criticize anything you like about him. I do. But criticize about anyone on specific meaningful vocabulary.

And yes, Antifa, is that a misrepresentative name or what?

[HondurasKeiser]

I stick to my guns. Fascist is as meaningful as supercalfragalistic

Sz listed 8 or 9 characteristics. They ALL applied to Communist China under both Mao and now Winnie the Pooh (a nickname he despises). No one describes China as fascist. It proves my point. Authoritarianism exists in and outside of Fascism. Not ONE of the traits ypu listed OR EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY that combined list, while true of those historical states, does not immediate mean, oh that is fascism.

Heck, my favorite point about historical fascism is that Hilters government was completely legal while In Duce literally seized power and had no legal legitimacy. And Franco simply won a civil war.

Using the rem in American politics of the 21st century is wrong. I do NOT mean this as a defense of Trump. Criticize anything you like about him. I do. But criticize about anyone on specific meaningful vocabulary.

And yes, Antifa, is that a misrepresentative name or what?

You may be interested in this from Scott Alexander