Questions about Mennonite denominations

[cmbl]

Some amill, postmill seem to think its up to the church to establish the Kingdom without Jesus present. Others claim its mystically established as a spiritual Kingdom inside our hearts or that the Church itself is presently the Kingdom prophecies fulfilled in full. And still others will claim their outward works are a spiritual manifestation of the Kingdom itself. Actually, the way one views the millennium can color one's theology quite a bit if you think about it...

Regarding the present reality of the Kingdom of God, my understanding is that any view of eschatology that is more 'realized' than classic dispensationalism includes a present Kingdom of God in some sense. Such views would include historic premillenialism, progressive dispensationalism, and the modified version of dispensationalism popular in Eastern and Pilgrim circles, in addition to the amillenialism and postmillenialism that you mentioned.

[Ernie]

If the present earth will be the site of an eternal kingdom - that is, if it will not be purified by fire, literally - then if that were me, I would be much more active in opposing the vast amount of pollution of the environment that is going on in our world, right now. I'm probably more of an environmentalist than many here (with a few here more actively involved in this cause than I), but I act 'privately', as an individual, and do not get involved in politics to 'force' it on others. (It was the summer after I finished the eight grade, 1968, when I remember thinking that only fire could purify the earth this time around. I was walking along the highway up to our church house, where I was attending pre-baptism classes, and was seeing all of the broken pop and beer bottles that people had thrown out their car windows as they drove past my grandparents' farm. And there are lots of other types of pollution now, things that were unknown back then. We bought a house last year that has a few acres of woods behind it, and just yesterday I walked through part of it, and had soon collected a large bag full of plastic, packaging foam, fast food containers, etc. I hadn't planned to do that, but after I came across the large plastic bag from some form of ice-melt solution, I started filling it with trash. I suspect that most of it blows into the woods from people who are careless with their own trash.)

Francis Schaeffer was the first person 25 years ago to introduce me to a Christian view of ecology. I've never seen the world the same since.

[cmbl]

Interesting. I wonder if that was intentional.

I suspect that it was, given that the 1928 edition of "Doctrines of the Bible" both mentions and allows for either the view that the just and unjust are raised in the same event or the view that the just and unjust are raised 1000 years apart.

And this was changed/edited in later editions?

I think not. I was just referring to the date to place it close in time to 1921. I have a copy of the 6th printing 1966, which is what I quoted from. I think that was not revised from 1928. I wonder if the 1898(?) Manual of Bible Doctrines would have less space for a 1000-year separation between the resurrection of the just and unjust.

[Ernie]

I suspect that it was, given that the 1928 edition of "Doctrines of the Bible" both mentions and allows for either the view that the just and unjust are raised in the same event or the view that the just and unjust are raised 1000 years apart.

And this was changed/edited in later editions?

I think not. I was just referring to the date to place it close in time to 1921. I have a copy of the 6th printing 1966, which is what I quoted from. I think that was not revised from 1928. I wonder if the 1898(?) Manual of Bible Doctrines would have less space for a 1000-year separation between the resurrection of the just and unjust.

Find out and report back to us!

[barkhausen102]

Regarding the present reality of the Kingdom of God, my understanding is that any view of eschatology that is more 'realized' than classic dispensationalism includes a present Kingdom of God in some sense. Such views would include historic premillenialism, progressive dispensationalism, and the modified version of dispensationalism popular in Eastern and Pilgrim circles, in addition to the amillenialism and postmillenialism that you mentioned.

Do you know what historic premillenialism says about the seventieth week of Daniel? I know in dispensationalism it has to do with the antichrist making a peace agreement. I'm not sure how they view it in historic premillenialism?

[barnhart]

Some amill, postmill seem to think its up to the church to establish the Kingdom without Jesus present...

True. Also worrying are those (pre-, a-, post-) who think it's up to the church to establish the kingdom without obedience to Jesus' teaching present.

[cmbl]

Regarding the present reality of the Kingdom of God, my understanding is that any view of eschatology that is more 'realized' than classic dispensationalism includes a present Kingdom of God in some sense. Such views would include historic premillenialism, progressive dispensationalism, and the modified version of dispensationalism popular in Eastern and Pilgrim circles, in addition to the amillenialism and postmillenialism that you mentioned.

Do you know what historic premillenialism says about the seventieth week of Daniel? I know in dispensationalism it has to do with the antichrist making a peace agreement. I'm not sure how they view it in historic premillenialism?

Not sure either.

[JohnH]

I asked my historic-premil friend, and he wasn't sure either. Guess it never came up. My general take on that view is that it is far less concerned with trying to have a detailed analysis of every bit of prophecy.

[Nomad]

Regarding the present reality of the Kingdom of God, my understanding is that any view of eschatology that is more 'realized' than classic dispensationalism includes a present Kingdom of God in some sense. Such views would include historic premillenialism, progressive dispensationalism, and the modified version of dispensationalism popular in Eastern and Pilgrim circles, in addition to the amillenialism and postmillenialism that you mentioned.

Do you know what historic premillenialism says about the seventieth week of Daniel? I know in dispensationalism it has to do with the antichrist making a peace agreement. I'm not sure how they view it in historic premillenialism?

You could try reading some of George Eldon Ladds "the Gospel of the Kingdom". He was Historic Premill. I'm not sure I remember everything he said...but I'm pretty sure he explained it as the 70th week of Daniel being fulfilled by Jesus death and resurrection.

[MattY]

Regarding the present reality of the Kingdom of God, my understanding is that any view of eschatology that is more 'realized' than classic dispensationalism includes a present Kingdom of God in some sense. Such views would include historic premillenialism, progressive dispensationalism, and the modified version of dispensationalism popular in Eastern and Pilgrim circles, in addition to the amillenialism and postmillenialism that you mentioned.

Do you know what historic premillenialism says about the seventieth week of Daniel? I know in dispensationalism it has to do with the antichrist making a peace agreement. I'm not sure how they view it in historic premillenialism?

The chiliasts in the early church, such as Hippolytus linked here, tended to link the final seven years - or at least the last half, 3 1/2 years - with the Antichrist of the end times. Hippolytus doesn't say anything about a peace deal as far as I can tell, but the entire seventieth week is placed with the end times, prior to Christ's return. This is "historical" and it would be anachronistic to call Hippolytus "dispensational", so I suppose it qualifies as historic premillennial...although perhaps it's not the modern version of "historic premillennialism", which might be sort of ironic. But there are modern postribulational premillennialists who hold this view.

"For he says, I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed. For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times. And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth; Revelation 11:3 and they will work signs and wonders with the object of making men ashamed and repentant, even by these means, on account of their surpassing lawlessness and impiety. And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of the advent of Antichrist, and to turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will."

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm