Israel in Promises and Prophecy and Fulfillment

[Ernie]

This is a thread to discuss matters pertaining to Israel in the Bible and the prophecies, warnings, promises associated with Israel.

This thread is to learn more about each other's Biblical views. Please treat each other nicely.

Keep references to modern day politics out of this, unless talking about your view of how Israel will be involved in end time events.

[Ernie]

Those who were "looking for the redemption of Israel" (like Simeon and Ana, in the temple the day Jesus was brought there for his redemption as a first born male) do not seem to be zealots. They appear to me to be people with a spiritual vision of the Savior. This is the OT "Congregation of God" coming into the New Testament era and faith. I don't think they left the OT 'church' in order to become a part of the NT 'church'. In my understanding, they are one and the same.

So in your view, the Jews who rejected Jesus left the church?

If they were even in it at that point, then yes. However I'm inclined to say that the congregation of God (the terminology I prefer, because it shows the continuity of 'God's People' throughout history) was and is composed of those who are expectantly "looking for the redemption of 'Israel' ", of which we are also now a part, according to Paul in the letter to the congregation in Galatia. In the OT era, this group were often referred to as the 'Remnant', or sometimes (in some translations), the 'Faithful' (meaning those who are full of faith, in obedience to God). In the early part of the Gospels (that part which records events before the death and resurrection of Jesus, God incarnate, the Anointed One) they are referred to by the name I used above - 'Those who are looking for the redemption of Israel'.

If this is all true, then they didn't LEAVE 'the church'; they were not IN 'the church' to start with, because had they been looking for redemption, they would have recognized Jesus for who he was.

So tell us more about the term Israel in the OT and NT, and how your view of that relates to the Congregation of God and the Church.

[Neto]

So in your view, the Jews who rejected Jesus left the church?

If they were even in it at that point, then yes. However I'm inclined to say that the congregation of God (the terminology I prefer, because it shows the continuity of 'God's People' throughout history) was and is composed of those who are expectantly "looking for the redemption of 'Israel' ", of which we are also now a part, according to Paul in the letter to the congregation in Galatia. In the OT era, this group were often referred to as the 'Remnant', or sometimes (in some translations), the 'Faithful' (meaning those who are full of faith, in obedience to God). In the early part of the Gospels (that part which records events before the death and resurrection of Jesus, God incarnate, the Anointed One) they are referred to by the name I used above - 'Those who are looking for the redemption of Israel'.

If this is all true, then they didn't LEAVE 'the church'; they were not IN 'the church' to start with, because had they been looking for redemption, they would have recognized Jesus for who he was.

So tell us more about the term Israel in the OT and NT, and how your view of that relates to the Congregation of God and the Church.

As best I can recall, the passage that started this thought path for me was John 10:16.

I found this list of a whole boat load of different translations. I went down through most of them and counted only a few that didn't include the word 'bring'. (Those used the word 'lead'.) I don't have a problem with the word lead, but He didn't say "I must lead THIS flock to them, and you all will become a part of this great new flock." WE join the flock that is true Israel, WE become true sons of Abraham. This new thought lead me to ask when the church actually started. I acknowledge that I may not be remembering correctly - maybe there was a different passage that started me in this direction, but this is the one that now informs my thinking about this question more than any other I can recall.

New International Version
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

New Living Translation
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

English Standard Version
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Berean Standard Bible
I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Berean Literal Bible
And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. It behooves Me to bring those also, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

King James Bible
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

New King James Version
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

New American Standard Bible
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd.

NASB 1995
“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

NASB 1977
“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd.

Legacy Standard Bible
And I have other sheep, which are not from this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Amplified Bible
I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.

Christian Standard Bible
But I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

American Standard Version
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

Contemporary English Version
I have other sheep that are not in this sheep pen. I must also bring them together, when they hear my voice. Then there will be one flock of sheep and one shepherd.

English Revised Version
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I also have other sheep that are not from this pen. I must lead them. They, too, will respond to my voice. So they will be one flock with one shepherd.

Good News Translation
There are other sheep which belong to me that are not in this sheep pen. I must bring them, too; they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

International Standard Version
I have other sheep that don't belong to this fold. I must lead these also, and they'll listen to my voice. So there will be one flock and one shepherd.

NET Bible
I have other sheep that do not come from this sheepfold. I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, so that there will be one flock and one shepherd.

New Heart English Bible
I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.

Webster's Bible Translation
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Weymouth New Testament
I have also other sheep--which do not belong to this fold. Those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice; and they shall become one flock under one Shepherd.

Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

World English Bible
I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it is necessary for Me to bring, and My voice they will hear, and there will become one flock—one shepherd.

Berean Literal Bible
And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. It behooves Me to bring those also, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

Young's Literal Translation
and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.

Smith's Literal Translation
And I have, other sheep, which are not of this court-yard: and I must also bring them, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, and one shepherd.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold, and I must lead them. They shall hear my voice, and there shall be one sheepfold and one shepherd.

New American Bible
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

New Revised Standard Version
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
I have other sheep also, which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear my voice; and all the sheep will become one flock and one shepherd.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But I have other sheep which were not from this fold; I must also bring them. They also will hear my voice, and the entire fold shall be one, and One Shepherd.”

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; those, also, must I bring, and they will hear my voice: and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Godbey New Testament
And I have other sheep which are not of this fold: and it behooves me to bring them and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Haweis New Testament
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: these also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.

Mace New Testament
other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring; they will hear my voice; and so there shall be but one fold, and one pastor.

Weymouth New Testament
I have also other sheep--which do not belong to this fold. Those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice; and they shall become one flock under one Shepherd.

Worrell New Testament
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and they shall become one flock, one Shepherd.

Worsley New Testament
And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they will hear my voice; so there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Source:
https://biblehub.com/parallel/john/10-16.htm

[Ernie]

Thank you!

So, some people think the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Jesus and the Church.

Others think there is a dual fulfillment, some promises continue on with fulfillment to those with Jewish blood or to the nation-state of Israel. Others they believe are fulfilled in the church. What do you think?

And what about Simeon and Anna and the Congregation of God? How does that fit into the above?

[Neto]

Thank you!

So, some people think the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Jesus and the Church.

Others think there is a dual fulfillment, some promises continue on with fulfillment to those with Jewish blood or to the nation-state of Israel. Others they believe are fulfilled in the church. What do you think?

And what about Simeon and Anna and the Congregation of God? How does that fit into the above?

I referred to them in the discussion in the other thread (where this all came from). That event was also instrumental in my change of thinking on this question, because I think that it is pretty clear that those two were not Zealots - they were looking for a different kind of redemption, and thus also a different kind of 'Messiah'. (That is, I think they were looking for "the final solution" - deliverance in salvation, not a political kingdom.)

viewtopic.php?p=283341#p283341

I do, however, also believe that the 'church' is not a replacement for the Jews. We join Israel through Christ, so Israel is not done away with. I also think that God is not finished with the Jewish people. Paul asks if there is no advantage for the Jews, and answers that 'they' have the Law and the Prophets. The covenant of Love is forever. But they must come into the fold through the Gate, and Jesus tells us clearly He is the Gate. I will not be jealous or hurt if they come in at the last, and "get the same pay". I also owe them a debt of gratitude. They had a part in the preservation of the Scriptures. I'm 'flattered' to be fellow heirs of God with them.

[Ernie]

I do, however, also believe that the 'church' is not a replacement for the Jews.

I agree. I don't think anybody can be a replacement for anyone else. But I do believe in fulfilled prophecy and that all the promises to Abraham and Israel can be fulfilled in Christ and the church. If I find out after I pass from this life that God had promises for spiritual Israel and physical Isreal in the New Testament era, I sure won't get into a debate with Him and tell him it can't be so because I thought otherwise on earth.

[barkhausen102]

Seems like the amillenial people say that the "Covenant Community" throughout the ages is Israel. Today, the covenant community is the Church incorporating both Jews and Gentiles together into the New Covenant.

The premillenials say that the modern nation of Israel is Israel in Bible prophecy.

So I think it really depends on your eschatology. None of them claim that the church "replaced" Israel. More like expanded Israel to include gentiles and Jews together in the New Covenant Community.

[JohnH]

Not all premillennials hold to Christian Zionism or dispensationalism. Some do.

I would not say that persons such as myself think anything “replaced” Israel, but rather that Jesus came to earth and fulfilled all the promises of the Messiah. Now “Israel” is open to any people who want to join and follow Jesus.

In my view, it does not matter anymore what your ethnic ancestry might or might not be; an Aboriginal Australian or an Inuit person is as much one of God’s children as an Ashkenazi Jewish person in Europe or an Arab from Nazareth whose family has been following Jesus for 2,000 years. The only question is if each individual accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. That is what defines “Israel” now. Israel was not replaced, but expanded.

The nation-state of Israel is no more or less relevant than Gaza, Lebanon, the Cherokee Nation, Papua New Guinea in terms of biblical prophecy and in terms of whether or not people will make it to heaven. National membership won’t be deciding anyone’s eternal fate. Neither will ethnic background. God isn’t granting special privileges to Jewish people, Arabs, Amish, Anabaptists, Irish Catholics, or anyone else.

[barkhausen102]

Not all premillennials hold to Christian Zionism or dispensationalism. Some do.

That's true.

What I have seen though is that many premillenials say that the temple in Jerusalem needs to be rebuilt so the antichrist can sit in it per Thessalonians. So that is still something that pertains to the nation of Israel.

Whereas in amillenialism, the Church itself is the temple, so the antichrist is often thought to be a prominent wicked church leader who takes his place in the church. So no rebuilt temple in Jerusalem is required in amillenialism.

[Nomad]

Not all premillennials hold to Christian Zionism or dispensationalism. Some do.

That's true.

What I have seen though is that many premillenials say that the temple in Jerusalem needs to be rebuilt so the antichrist can sit in it per Thessalonians. So that is still something that pertains to the nation of Israel.

Whereas in amillenialism, the Church itself is the temple, so the antichrist is often thought to be a prominent wicked church leader who takes his place in the church. So no rebuilt temple in Jerusalem is required in amillenialism.

While I believe that a temple will be rebuilt in Israel along with a view of a distinction between Israel and the Church. I also believe in the illustration Paul gave of the Church being "a temple" resembling a unified body of believers regardless of ethnicity. He also speaks in the same terminology as our individual bodies as being "temples".

However, I also think we as Christians should be waiting for Christ return as the next event. Not a temple rebuilt in Jerusalem...I dont have a problem with Christians speaking of a temple built as long as they don't get to fixated on that event being our hope.