They that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

[Ernie]

By this, Are you referring to the whole statement, are just the last part of the statement by Jesus?

I’m talking about “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”

Ok. Thanks. Just making sure that I am understanding.

I’m trying to think of a parallel that might help me understand your interpretation.

What about this…

A dad tells his teenage son…
“Keep your phone in your pocket. All who text while driving will die in accident.”
What the dad really means is, Don't do it. I don't want my children texting while driving.

Does this capture your idea at all? If not, might you be able to suggest a parallel?

???

[R7ehr]

By this, Are you referring to the whole statement, are just the last part of the statement by Jesus?

I’m talking about “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”

Ok. Thanks. Just making sure that I am understanding.

I’m trying to think of a parallel that might help me understand your interpretation.

What about this…

A dad tells his teenage son…
“Keep your phone in your pocket. All who text while driving will die in accident.”
What the dad really means is, Don't do it. I don't want my children texting while driving.

Does this capture your idea at all? If not, might you be able to suggest a parallel?

I think this is a reasonable parallel.

Culturally and conversationally, saying “Keep your phone in your pocket. All who text while driving will die in accident.” rolls off the tongue pretty lumpily. I think it is the use of the word "All". Which find really interesting, and an important point to Jesus comment.
What the Dad may tell his teenage son, might be something like "Keep your phone in your pocket. If you don't, you will get in an accident". Which is to say as you did "Don't do it. I don't want my children texting while driving".

What is the difference then with the word "all" in Jesus comment? I think it is reasonable to believe that he was talking to all of his disciples with that comment, unlike a father alone in the car to his teenage son. I think Jesus, with that comment, was not only talking to Peter, but instead used what just happened, to lay down a teaching for all of his followers. Perhaps the word "all" should be emphasized, meaning to those listening that Jesus wasn't just talking about Peter and this specific instance. But rather they were to understand it to include all everyone. And so I agree with Tertullian when he says that "the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbelted every soldier."

[Ernie]

I’m talking about “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”

Ok. Thanks. Just making sure that I am understanding.

I’m trying to think of a parallel that might help me understand your interpretation.

What about this…

A dad tells his teenage son…
“Keep your phone in your pocket. All who text while driving will die in accident.”
What the dad really means is, Don't do it. I don't want my children texting while driving.

Does this capture your idea at all? If not, might you be able to suggest a parallel?

I think this is a reasonable parallel.

Culturally and conversationally, saying “Keep your phone in your pocket. All who text while driving will die in accident.” rolls off the tongue pretty lumpily. I think it is the use of the word "All". Which find really interesting, and an important point to Jesus comment.
What the Dad may tell his teenage son, might be something like "Keep your phone in your pocket. If you don't, you will get in an accident". Which is to say as you did "Don't do it. I don't want my children texting while driving".

What is the difference then with the word "all" in Jesus comment? I think it is reasonable to believe that he was talking to all of his disciples with that comment, unlike a father alone in the car to his teenage son. I think Jesus, with that comment, was not only talking to Peter, but instead used what just happened, to lay down a teaching for all of his followers. And so I agree with Tertullian when he says that "the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbelted every soldier."

Ok. I suppose that is a reasonable interpretation, even though I resonate more with Praxis's interpretation.

[R7ehr]

"All who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

To me, this is saying something about a way of life, a path. One that is entered into by an action. "Taking up the sword" means entering the arena where problems are solved with with violence, and the tools used to solve problems are weapons ("swords)". Soldiers (policemen)occupy this sphere, but so do the zealots (citizen revolutionaries), and those who wear the purple (Caesar and his governors). Jesus is saying "If you step into that sphere, you're committing yourself to a way of life where everyone's problems are solved with violence. You'll be there until you become a problem for someone else, and they will solve their problem with violence."

Using weapons/violence to solve a problem is the action that puts us into that social sphere, that space, that arena, where violence is the ultimate solution to any problem. It's hard to shake. It's like a drug. It's comforting to know that violence is always there, when all other options have failed, to give you a fighting chance.

But you CAN step out of that sphere. Jesus, of course, calls his followers to reject that sphere earlier in his teaching (Matthew 5). But beyond the desire to obey Jesus, he provides a practical reason to reject it: if you don't make the choice to leave that sphere entirely, you should be aware that violence can, and probably will, be used against you, not just by you.

I imagine a dark night in Gethsemane. And I see a flash of metal, hear a yell of pain, and then I see Jesus pick something off the ground and hold it against the side of a bleeding head. And Jesus says: "....all who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

I would not hear Jesus saying:
"If you step into that sphere, you're committing yourself to a way of life where everyone's problems are solved with violence. You'll be there until you become a problem for someone else, and they will solve their problem with violence."

I quite agree that where you are arriving at is the same place I arrive at on the Christian way of life. However, I do not arrive at this shared place via Matthew 26:52.

[Ken]

"All who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

To me, this is saying something about a way of life, a path. One that is entered into by an action. "Taking up the sword" means entering the arena where problems are solved with with violence, and the tools used to solve problems are weapons ("swords)". Soldiers (policemen)occupy this sphere, but so do the zealots (citizen revolutionaries), and those who wear the purple (Caesar and his governors). Jesus is saying "If you step into that sphere, you're committing yourself to a way of life where everyone's problems are solved with violence. You'll be there until you become a problem for someone else, and they will solve their problem with violence."

Using weapons/violence to solve a problem is the action that puts us into that social sphere, that space, that arena, where violence is the ultimate solution to any problem. It's hard to shake. It's like a drug. It's comforting to know that violence is always there, when all other options have failed, to give you a fighting chance.

But you CAN step out of that sphere. Jesus, of course, calls his followers to reject that sphere earlier in his teaching (Matthew 5). But beyond the desire to obey Jesus, he provides a practical reason to reject it: if you don't make the choice to leave that sphere entirely, you should be aware that violence can, and probably will, be used against you, not just by you.

I imagine a dark night in Gethsemane. And I see a flash of metal, hear a yell of pain, and then I see Jesus pick something off the ground and hold it against the side of a bleeding head. And Jesus says: "....all who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

I would not hear Jesus saying:
"If you step into that sphere, you're committing yourself to a way of life where everyone's problems are solved with violence. You'll be there until you become a problem for someone else, and they will solve their problem with violence."

I quite agree that where you are arriving at is the same place I arrive at on the Christian way of life. However, I do not arrive at this shared place via Matthew 26:52.

Virtually all of Jesus' teachings were lessons to be applied broadly and figuratively. The Good Samaritan, the Prodigal Son, the Sower, the 10 Virgins right there in the preceding paragraph.

I don't think there is any reason to believe was speaking narrowly in this particular instance and not about violence in the broadest possible sense.

[R7ehr]

"All who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

To me, this is saying something about a way of life, a path. One that is entered into by an action. "Taking up the sword" means entering the arena where problems are solved with with violence, and the tools used to solve problems are weapons ("swords)". Soldiers (policemen)occupy this sphere, but so do the zealots (citizen revolutionaries), and those who wear the purple (Caesar and his governors). Jesus is saying "If you step into that sphere, you're committing yourself to a way of life where everyone's problems are solved with violence. You'll be there until you become a problem for someone else, and they will solve their problem with violence."

Using weapons/violence to solve a problem is the action that puts us into that social sphere, that space, that arena, where violence is the ultimate solution to any problem. It's hard to shake. It's like a drug. It's comforting to know that violence is always there, when all other options have failed, to give you a fighting chance.

But you CAN step out of that sphere. Jesus, of course, calls his followers to reject that sphere earlier in his teaching (Matthew 5). But beyond the desire to obey Jesus, he provides a practical reason to reject it: if you don't make the choice to leave that sphere entirely, you should be aware that violence can, and probably will, be used against you, not just by you.

I imagine a dark night in Gethsemane. And I see a flash of metal, hear a yell of pain, and then I see Jesus pick something off the ground and hold it against the side of a bleeding head. And Jesus says: "....all who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

I would not hear Jesus saying:
"If you step into that sphere, you're committing yourself to a way of life where everyone's problems are solved with violence. You'll be there until you become a problem for someone else, and they will solve their problem with violence."

I quite agree that where you are arriving at is the same place I arrive at on the Christian way of life. However, I do not arrive at this shared place via Matthew 26:52.

Virtually all of Jesus' teachings were lessons to be applied broadly and figuratively. The Good Samaritan, the Prodigal Son, the Sower, the 10 Virgins right there in the preceding paragraph.

I don't think there is any reason to believe was speaking narrowly in this particular instance and not about violence in the broadest possible sense.

The goal should not be to look at things on a broad=good / narrow=bad, or vis versa, spectrum. Instead we should look at each case and simply try to understand what was being said and meant, and how that influences us today. The goal should be properly dividing the word of truth. Not adopt an always-or-never approach.

Besides, to some, I am way to broad in my understanding because I, in the broadest sense possible, include all physical violence, making no exception for armed forces, and police, and self defense.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Besides, to some, I am way to broad in my understanding because I, in the broadest sense possible, include all physical violence, making no exception for armed forces, and police, and self defense.

Unless Jesus makes those exceptions, I wouldn't say you are being too broad.

[barnhart]

"The only people on earth who do not see Christ and his teachings as nonviolent are Christians," - Gandhi

[joshuabgood]

"The only people on earth who do not see Christ and his teachings as nonviolent are Christians," - Gandhi

Exactly, only be clever biblical and tricky theology can one escape the clear teachings and example of Jesus. If his witness and teachings are assumed authoritative it becomes clear..

[barnhart]

"The only people on earth who do not see Christ and his teachings as nonviolent are Christians," - Gandhi

Exactly, only be clever biblical and tricky theology can one escape the clear teachings and example of Jesus. If his witness and teachings are assumed authoritative it becomes clear..

"... Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close. Oh, priceless scholarship, what would we do without you? Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament." - Soren Kierkegaard