Prayers for the Catholic Church

[JayP]

No, not offended at all. I guess it is hard to quantify how special a day canonization is.

In one sense you are quite correct. For those that identify with that saint, or have a connection p, it can be pretty special.

On the other hand, being a cranky old guy, while I think there is much practical view in the value of the different saints, I grow suspicious of everything Rome does. An interesting study is how was a saint treated in their lifetime. You will find often the Church treats many saints quite poorly while alive.

My relationship with Rome is a bit like that old expression you hear about government when someone says “I love my country but fear my government.” in Fidler on the Roof someone asks the rabbi is there a prayer for the Czar? He thinks, and replies, “God bless the czar….and keep him far from us”. Lol…sort of my thoughts about Rome.

But a child that finds something of value in the two new saints is to be commended and encouraged.
Those two certainly bore their cross. That is why we have them….as examples and for encouragement

[Ken]

No, not offended at all. I guess it is hard to quantify how special a day canonization is.

In one sense you are quite correct. For those that identify with that saint, or have a connection p, it can be pretty special.

On the other hand, being a cranky old guy, while I think there is much practical view in the value of the different saints, I grow suspicious of everything Rome does. An interesting study is how was a saint treated in their lifetime. You will find often the Church treats many saints quite poorly while alive.

My relationship with Rome is a bit like that old expression you hear about government when someone says “I love my country but fear my government.” in Fidler on the Roof someone asks the rabbi is there a prayer for the Czar? He thinks, and replies, “God bless the czar….and keep him far from us”. Lol…sort of my thoughts about Rome.

But a child that finds something of value in the two new saints is to be commended and encouraged.
Those two certainly bore their cross. That is why we have them….as examples and for encouragement

It isn't THAT special. The Catholic Church has canonized over 10,000 saints over the years and has lost track of who many are or what they did.

But if we are going to identify saints at all, I think it is useful to continue to search out modern saints and not simply resign sainthood to something that happened in the middle ages.

As a non-Catholic who married into a Catholic family my own particular issue is the requirement for documented miracles. I don't think there is anything Biblical about that at all.

[JayP]

FWWI there are many th8ngs I like, and dislike, about being Catholic.
One of the th8ngs I like is simply not playing in the same pool as though who constantly want to say “This is scriptural….that is NOT scriptural”. Not that someth8ng being scriptural is bad or wrong, but Catholics do not begin and end with scripture. So it is less a case of “we are right, you are wrong” but simply different rules. Protestants are playing football, we are playing baseball.

When “scriptural” is your basis for anything it leads to an experience I remember in Eastern ,listening to a message on the covering, and the guy talking about how in the catacombs of Rome there were pictures of women who were wearing coverings just like us.

Really? Not fussing this Anabaptist ordinance, nor denigrating the values of the practice, but trying to convince me the folks in 200AD wore exactly that style? Where do you th8nk they got material like that? Strains the brain.

FWIIW, miracles attributed to a saint is a pretty good confirmation they are in heaven,

[eccentric_rambler]

Where do you th8nk they got material like that? Strains the brain.

Strains credulity. Also looks a bit like a strainer. I'm laughing.

[Ken]

FWIIW, miracles attributed to a saint is a pretty good confirmation they are in heaven,

Are they? Or are we simply drawing conclusions from their life story. Let's take the example of the latest saint, the teenager Carlo Acutis and the two miracles attributed to him, which both occurred AFTER his death. He died in 2006.

In the first miracle the description is as follows:

In 2013 on the death anniversary of Acutis, Luciana Vianna had taken to Mass her 4-year-old son, Mattheus, who had the congenital defect of an annular pancreas which made eating difficult. Beforehand, she had prayed a novena asking for Acutis's intercession. During the prayer service following Mass, Mattheus kissed the clothing relic of Acutis and asked he should not "throw up as much". Immediately following the Mass, he told his mother that he felt healed and asked for solid foods when they arrived home. Until then, he had been on an all-liquid diet. His doctors subsequently confirmed a normal appearing pancreas by ultrasound.

And the description of the second miracle is as follows:

On 23 May 2024, Pope Francis recognised a second miracle attributed to the intercession of Acutis.The miracle attributed to his intercession occurred in 2022, when a Costa Rican woman named Valeria Valverde had fallen off her bike in Florence, Italy, and suffered a brain haemorrhage with doctors giving her a low chance of survival. Her mother, Lilliana, prayed for the intercession of Acutis and visited his tomb. The same day, Valverde began to breathe independently again and was able to walk the next day with all evidence of the haemorrhage having disappeared.

I mean...OK, whatever. Maybe those were miracles, maybe not. Sick kids get better all the time. But there is nothing Biblical about the notion that dead people perform miracles.

[Valerie]

FWIIW, miracles attributed to a saint is a pretty good confirmation they are in heaven,

Are they? Or are we simply drawing conclusions from their life story. Let's take the example of the latest saint, the teenager Carlo Acutis and the two miracles attributed to him, which both occurred AFTER his death. He died in 2006.

In the first miracle the description is as follows:

In 2013 on the death anniversary of Acutis, Luciana Vianna had taken to Mass her 4-year-old son, Mattheus, who had the congenital defect of an annular pancreas which made eating difficult. Beforehand, she had prayed a novena asking for Acutis's intercession. During the prayer service following Mass, Mattheus kissed the clothing relic of Acutis and asked he should not "throw up as much". Immediately following the Mass, he told his mother that he felt healed and asked for solid foods when they arrived home. Until then, he had been on an all-liquid diet. His doctors subsequently confirmed a normal appearing pancreas by ultrasound.

And the description of the second miracle is as follows:

On 23 May 2024, Pope Francis recognised a second miracle attributed to the intercession of Acutis.The miracle attributed to his intercession occurred in 2022, when a Costa Rican woman named Valeria Valverde had fallen off her bike in Florence, Italy, and suffered a brain haemorrhage with doctors giving her a low chance of survival. Her mother, Lilliana, prayed for the intercession of Acutis and visited his tomb. The same day, Valverde began to breathe independently again and was able to walk the next day with all evidence of the haemorrhage having disappeared.

I mean...OK, whatever. Maybe those were miracles, maybe not. Sick kids get better all the time. But there is nothing Biblical about the notion that dead people perform miracles.

They are not “dead” they are alive with Christ. As said in Revelations the saints are in heaven and certainly can pray. If the prayer was answered & that appeared miraculous, I suppose your theology may be limited.

[R7ehr]

How ridiculous. Clearly then, Benny Hinn’s a shoo-in for heaven and sainthood.

[ohio jones]

They are not “dead” they are alive with Christ. As said in Revelations the saints are in heaven and certainly can pray.

Where precisely do you find this?

How do you reconcile it with Paul who says in 1 Thess. "the dead in Christ will rise first"?

[Soloist]

They are not “dead” they are alive with Christ. As said in Revelations the saints are in heaven and certainly can pray.

Where precisely do you find this?

How do you reconcile it with Paul who says in 1 Thess. "the dead in Christ will rise first"?

While I don’t agree with the general premise being presented…

Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:33  And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

[Ken]

They are not “dead” they are alive with Christ. As said in Revelations the saints are in heaven and certainly can pray. If the prayer was answered & that appeared miraculous, I suppose your theology may be limited.

I don't know that my theology is limited. I just happen to disagree with the veneration of saints (and especially relics) as objects of supernatural power. And honestly, I think it is more of a legacy of medieval mysticism than anything Biblical. It is more cult-like than anything else.

I have no problem with the notion of identifying and venerating historical figures of importance to the church. I think that is a good thing and remembering our history is important. Anabaptists do the same thing with figures like Menno Simons, Dirk Willems, Michael Sattler, Conrad Grebel, etc. The difference is just that Anabaptists don't label them as "saints" and don't have to link them to miracles (before or after their deaths) in order to honor and recognize them.